Brief and Basic Rule Sheet for Beginners

Bill Spight · **#21**

moyoaji wrote:

PaperTiger wrote:

"When in doubt, play it out." You haven't defined what a "dead" stone is that can be removed without playing, so your rules are not Japanese rules. I just followed the logic of your rules, as any beginner would.

If you "play it out" under Japanese rules the score is still the same.

If the score were still the same, the Japanese '89 rules would settle disputes by actual play instead of by hypothetical play.

Quote:

Move 1 is black pass.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------ $$ | 5 2 3 . . | $$ | X 4 X X X | $$ | O X X X O | $$ | O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . | $$ ------------[/go]

Black has lost 2 points by playing in his own territory, but has captured 2 white stones as well. The score is the same. But perhaps a beginner would not see :b3:

. It is a more advanced move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------ $$ | . 2 4 5 . | $$ | X 3 X X X | $$ | O X X X O | $$ | O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . | $$ ------------[/go]

In this case, Black has still killed 2 stones.

And how does a beginner know this? Your rules say nothing about killing stones without capturing them.

Quote:

White cannot challenge this as any move he makes is either suicide or removing a point from his side of the board. Black does not need to capture at A5.

And why is that? Your rules state: "Your score is your territory minus captured stones." They do not say, "Your score is your territory minus stones that your opponent has either captured or killed." Since they say nothing about killing stones without capturing them, the normal inference is that Black must capture the two White stones in order to make territory and to get points for the captured stones.

In fact, many beginners get that impression even when the rules have been correctly explained to them.

BTW, :w2:

is dead as it stands.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Snapback $$ ------------ $$ | . 2 5 . . | $$ | X 4 X X X | $$ | O X X X O | $$ | O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . | $$ ------------[/go]

,

pass

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Variation $$ ------------ $$ | . 2 4 5 . | $$ | X . X X X | $$ | O X X X O | $$ | O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . | $$ ------------[/go]

,

pass

Quote:

However, let's say the beginner does want to capture. The result is a tie. But I say again, so what? So they end up with a tie in their first game instead of a win they deserved. As long as they play a second game then the first game has served its purpose.

No, it hasn't. The beginner now has an incorrect understanding of the rules. This is worse than when beginners come to that understanding on their own, because it is what they have been taught.

Quote:

This is not a tournament. Frankly, who wins and who loses doesn't even matter.

The problem is not who wins or loses. The problem is giving beginners the wrong idea about the game.

GoRo · **#22**

Dusk Eagle wrote:

While your rules may be fine for beginners, they're incompatible with Go as it is normally played. In normal Go, you can answer a ko capture with another ko capture, as long as it's not a capture on the same ko.

Please compare the "Bodensee rules" to "capture Go" which is also used for
teaching beginners. Both methods have their value and can be mixed to keep
beginners interested. Players enjoying both of these games might switch to
"normal Go" in due time. The "no 2 tickling moves in a row" rule keeps the
idea of Ko while avoiding too complicated situations.

Maybe all criticising people could agree that Bodensee rules are somewhere
in between capture Go and normal Go? Regarding big eyes Bodensee rules are
definitely better, I believe.

I was glad to receive the response from moyoaji, thank you!
I would like to hear about practical experience from whoever likes to
give the Bodensee rules a try in teaching complete beginners.

Cheers,
Rainer
(GoChild GoRo with 1767371 points)

Dusk Eagle · **#23**

So we're both saying that Bodensee rules are fine for beginners but not the same as normal Go. Sounds like we agree.

Bill Spight · **#24**

GoRo wrote:

Maybe all criticising people could agree that Bodensee rules are somewhere
in between capture Go and normal Go?

Bodensee rules are not in between Capture Go and normal go. They go off in a different direction.

Quote:

Please compare the "Bodensee rules" to "capture Go" which is also used for
teaching beginners.

The concept of territory in Capture Go is almost the same as in regular go. The concept of territory in Bodensee Go is quite different.

Example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------ $$ | . B B O . | $$ | O O O O O | $$ | X O O O X | $$ | X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . | $$ ------------[/go]

White is 1 pt. ahead in regular go, as the two :bc:

stones are dead, but it is Black's turn and Black to play can win by Bodensee Go rules.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------ $$ | 4 B B O . | $$ | O O O O O | $$ | X O O O X | $$ | X X X X X | $$ | 3 2 . 1 . | $$ ------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------ $$ | O 5 . O . | $$ | O O O O O | $$ | X O O O X | $$ | X X X X X | $$ | X O . X . | $$ ------------[/go]

After

the board is miai, and Black can get the last move by playing mirror go. Edit: Until White plays self-atari, that is.

By contrast, consider this position in Capture Go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . | $$ | O . O O O | $$ | X O O O X | $$ | X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . | $$ ------------[/go]

Black to play will lose, which we can tell simply by counting the territories. White is 1 pt. ahead in territory, which means that he is 1 move ahead in Capture Go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------ $$ | . . . . . | $$ | O O O O O | $$ | X O O O X | $$ | X X X X X | $$ | . . . . . | $$ ------------[/go]

Take away 1 pt. of territory from White and we have jigo. Jigo is a win for the second player, so White still wins with Black to play.

Brief and Basic Rule Sheet for Beginners

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