Visualizing Tsumego

dfan · **#21**

ethanb:

FlameBlade · **#22**

ethanb wrote:

walleye wrote:

I sometimes come across a problem that looks simple enough, but I end up staring at it for a long time before I finally get it.

Here's one of them. Note the time, open the hidden and once you've solved it tell me how long it took you.

6 seconds, 2 dan

Ethanb:

Kirby · **#23**

FlameBlade wrote:

ethanb wrote:

walleye wrote:

I sometimes come across a problem that looks simple enough, but I end up staring at it for a long time before I finally get it.

Here's one of them. Note the time, open the hidden and once you've solved it tell me how long it took you.

6 seconds, 2 dan

Ethanb:

daniel_the_smith · **#24**

I'm glad I'm not the only one thoroughly confused by ethanb's comment

It took me an embarrassingly long time and I got it wrong. Finally just came up with the correct solution when making a diagram for this post. Nice problem, next time I think I will get a problem of this theme in under a minute.

Solution:

Kirby · **#25**

Somebody should start posting the go problems of the day, again.

walleye · **#26**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

It took me an embarrassingly long time

Could you please quantify that.

walleye · **#27**

daal wrote:

In another thread, viewtopic.php?p=27323#p27323/ Bill Spight made an interesting comment about visualizing tsumego:

Bill Spight wrote:

... the good L&D solvers looked at potential eye points, while the bad solvers looked at where to put stones.

Can some stronger players corroborate this from their personal experience, and can you describe what goes on in your head while you're doing it? (i.e., can you teach me how to do it?)

In my opinion, good L&D solvers are good because they have internalized a huge number of basic shapes and techniques by solving a lot of tsumego.

If you have internalized a specific technique you don't really need to imagine the moves any more. The whole sequence plays out in your subconscious and the answer appears momentarily. This helps to speed up your reading a lot because you don't spend as much time in the branches.

daal · **#28**

walleye wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

... the good L&D solvers looked at potential eye points, while the bad solvers looked at where to put stones.

In my opinion, good L&D solvers are good because they have internalized a huge number of basic shapes and techniques by solving a lot of tsumego.

If you have internalized a specific technique you don't really need to imagine the moves any more. The whole sequence plays out in your subconscious and the answer appears momentarily. This helps to speed up your reading a lot because you don't spend as much time in the branches.

Yes, I believe this is an important point, and I suspect that part of what goes on in the visualization process is scanning the stones for evidence of familiar shapes and visualizing the results of sequences associated with those shapes, letting the experienced solver quickly see a branch farther along the tree.

Nonetheless, I still harbor the suspicion that there is something inherently different between looking at potential eyes and looking at potential stones. Artists, such as painters, for whom visualization is a fundamental skill, know that the shapes of the space between objects are often as important for the image as the objects themselves. For non-painters, this is counter-intuitive - for artists it's second nature. For some of them it's a matter of instinct; others have been taught.

Wildclaw · **#29**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

walleye wrote:

If you have internalized a specific technique you don't really need to imagine the moves any more. The whole sequence plays out in your subconscious and the answer appears momentarily. This helps to speed up your reading a lot because you don't spend as much time in the branches.

In many ways such intuition/pattern knowledge is more important than reading. You can get quite far by using it alone without any reading. The opposite isn't really true. Reading without any knowledge to support it isn't really possible as the search space simply is too big without good pruning.

daal wrote:

and I suspect that part of what goes on in the visualization process is scanning the stones for evidence of familiar shapes and visualizing the results of sequences associated with those shapes,

One thing to note is that this really isn't specific to visualizing. I am personally quite weak at visualizing, so I mostly rely on other ways to read. But since my visual recognition is just fine, I can still use the same pattern associations.

emeraldemon · **#30**

I also got this wrong

. I often have trouble finding these sorts of crushing moves, for some reason it's a pattern I tend to miss. Maybe I need to go back and practice some easy ones...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ , . . . . O O O . . | $$ . . . . . O X X X X | $$ . . . . . O O X . O | $$ . . . . . . O X O . | $$ --------------------[/go]

Chew Terr · **#31**

Wildclaw, I'm in a similar boat:

Cassandra · **#32**

Chew Terr wrote:

Wildclaw, I'm in a similar boat:

That's one of the advantages of Tsume-Go:
You can be sure that there is a pathway from A to B.

What you cannot be at all in real games.

karaklis · **#33**

emeraldemon wrote:

I also got this wrong

. I often have trouble finding these sorts of crushing moves, for some reason it's a pattern I tend to miss. Maybe I need to go back and practice some easy ones...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ , . . . . O O O . . | $$ . . . . . O X X X X | $$ . . . . . O O X . O | $$ . . . . . . O X O . | $$ --------------------[/go]

Yeah, oshitsubushi is a pattern that doesn't appear very often in real-life games (only once I had this in a corner fight). If you are tsumego-trained, you see this immediately. Then it is so simple that you doubt that it's really the solution..

Cassandra · **#34**

Here is another type of problem.

daniel_the_smith · **#35**

That's a good one, too. I found it easier than walleye's.

I don't know how long this took me, I looked at it and then came back later. (Walleye's took me more than 10 minutes and it might have been more than 20, but I didn't actually find the correct solution until later.)

Solution to Cassandra's:

Cassandra · **#36**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Solution to Cassandra's:
...

What about this :b2:

?

daniel_the_smith · **#37**

daal · **#38**

May I remind you tsumego solvers that this thread is about visualizing tsumego, i.e., where you are looking and what drew your eye there. Please include a few words about this in your solutions. Otherwise, as Kirby suggested, go ahead and start a tsumego of the day thread elsewhere.

Cassandra · **#39**

It seems that my posting had been source of some disturbances.

So, here I will deliver my thoughts about the first problem.

dfan · **#40**

Cassandra wrote:

It seems that my posting had been source of some disturbances.

So, here I will deliver my thoughts about the first problem.

Thanks Cassandra. I think it is really useful to see the logical process that stronger players follow to solve these.

I pretty much had the same logic (can make one eye in gote on the right so need to make the other eye in sente, the hane on the bottom is sente, the 1-1 point seems relevant) but couldn't put it together in time (I gave up after five minutes).

Visualizing Tsumego

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