I agree with pretty much all of this - I do think it's valuable to be aware of. If Black blocks on the wrong side, knowing that the hane may be a better choice than the descent is useful I think. I only posted it because it was a valid variation that has cropped up in a few games I've encountered and it hadn't yet been posted here.

Seems like a couple people missed this little tidbit.

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Where've you been? Zatoichi could slice the board in half, put it back together again and rearrange the position so fast that no-one even knew he'd drawn his sword - and he was blind. ~ John Fairbairn

I watched a game review at this year's congress where the pro suggested the hane as optimal play. I think there are a lot of situations where it is correct.

Did you see the part where it was a 3-stone handicap? If I win with a 3-stone handicap, I'd be glad for a review from the winner, and even more glad if he voluntarily explained my mistakes, rather than making me grovel.

Anyway, it sounds like your local go club is a bunch of grouches (possibly compounded by the fact that they thought you stopped playing go, and then when you came back you're much stronger than they are).

So your saying you'd be glad for a review from yourself? Not that theres anything wrong with that.

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Where've you been? Zatoichi could slice the board in half, put it back together again and rearrange the position so fast that no-one even knew he'd drawn his sword - and he was blind. ~ John Fairbairn

Ho ho, you got me there.

To clarify, I was white in the 3 stone game. Black made an easy joseki mistake, and still won by 10 points or so because I'm horrible at dealing with handicap. So I pointed out that if he had handled the corner correctly, I wouldn't have even been that close.

Still, it is different than playing a ladder game, Sol.

No rank was involved, we were at club. We smiled, and chatted, and said hello before the game. I'm not precisely a random scrub online when playing a person, and I thought that was the point of club, was to get together, play, and learn.

If it's not, I can play plenty of engaging, interesting games online, without having to drag myself out of hermitude and actually face people.

In short, why should I bother going to club, if not to discuss games and learn things?

I guess the social interaction is a turn-on for some people. I would say it's as simple as, if you don't like going, don't go. If you like going, go.

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be immersed

Everyone goes for different reasons. Some people do just want games without much discussion. They just might not like playing online. Others do go for discussing.

As you go more often, you figure out who you want to play with.

I only went to "new" clubs twice before and both times we had discussions on the game.

My take on etiquette at a club is everyone has their own reasons for being there. If your opponent is there wanting to learn and understand his mistakes, he'll no doubt ask for a review or at least ask about some of his mistakes. If he doesn't, you can always offer to "shall we go over the game" / " would you like to discuss the game", which comes across less "I'm better than you so you ought to listen to my Go Sagery" than "Would you like me to review the game". People's pride can be sensitive, particularly after a defeat, and a lot of people find their mistakes pointed out immediately afterwards as having their nose rubbed in the fact that they suck too much. Maybe they shouldn't feel that way, but it's certainly pretty common.

Unsought advice is rarely heeded anyway in my experience, so take it that if they don't ask, they probably don't want to know. Just play another game with someone, and ask when you feel you got a bad result somewhere if your opponent had any better suggestions.

It's also possible that coming in and beating everyone and / or offering advice (particularly where you lost) may have meant you come across as some smug know-it-all, which could easily get their hackles up. Again, an unreasonable judgement on their part perhaps, but first impressions are so very important. Social politics eh?

I am often on the receiving end of such commentary. "Shall we go over one or two sequences where things went badly?" is a useful approach, especially for 20-10k players who want to get better but have no idea what you're talking about, mostly. Can you remember your ability to perceive the subtleties of go when you played at your opponent's level or are you just showing off? Let me put it this way, whether you are a condescending jerk or an encouraging mentor is not up to you, it is determined by the other player.

David Boise Id

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David Bogie, Boise ID
I play go, I ride a recumbent, of course I use Macintosh.

Just to further mix things up, it's worth noting that blocking toward the right side will almost invariably be a gote choice for black, where blocking the top-side first is virtually always sente for black. If sente is black's primary aim, and the right side is black's secondary aim, the hane may seem reasonable (of course, we may get into the questioning the validity of the initial pincer...).

Hello CSamurai,

to my mind offering a review was completely ok, but I was not the one who got beaten Difficult to be objective after a sudden loss.

Surely, there will be a better atmosphere between you and the other club members when they'll get to know you better after a couple of visits.

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Yunzi makes the world go round, the world go round...

If your the new person, there are some rules to follow in this type of social situation.

After the game, thank the other player.

Do not speak unless spoken to.

Accept commentary from the other player, if they offer it, but do not offer any of your own.

Continue this until you get to know them, which may take months.

The general goal here, is to get others to speak, and then let them speak. The more they speak, the better you will know them.

Then, when you do speak, keep the subjects focused on what THEY are interested in, not on what YOU are interested in.

This applies to all sorts of social situations.

Thank you.

"The only time I went to go club regularly was in SLC, where Anders and the others were always ready to discuss anything they played with you. "

What is SLC? Do you mean, Salt Lake City? Did you really play in Salt Lake City, or across the river?

That's a red flag, right there. Not everyone in the world is going to know what "SLC" means, and they may take it as "I'm smarter than you".

And the final rule: if this is your first night at the Go club, you have to play.

And bring 500 dollars.

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Has the general attitude of go players in the U.S. changed that much in the past six years? When I started playing it was considered normal to review the game afterward, even perhaps slightly rude not to, and you even saw a brief "this might have been better" after games on KGS.

I haven't been on KGS much recently, so I dunno about that, but face to face play hasn't seemed so different here on the east coast...