The AGA makes me sad.

pwaldron · **#61**

shapenaji wrote:

Tournament Directors and the AGA leadership, you guys exist for landed players, people who have learned the game and love it. You may bring new people to the game on your own time, but on official time, the tournaments, held in disused laboratories with signs emblazoned "beware of the leopard", are simply not visible enough to be what keeps go functioning in this country.

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Phelan · **#62**

I am not involved in anyway with the American Go scene, but I like the new direction HKA gave this thread. Please keep the contributions positive!

daniel_the_smith · **#63**

I think that hosting in-person tournaments is the biggest (or at least the most obvious) service the AGA provides. Most people I know who are members originally joined so they could play in a tournament.

shapenaji · **#64**

John Fairbairn wrote:

Quote:

I asked the question because the last time I assumed someone was talking about me, I was accused of being egocentric. I didn't want to make that mistake this time when I was deciding whether or not to get into the discussion.

shapenaji: you are being egocentric again.

I'm taking your single line reply as evidence that you have nothing to contribute, and picking up a constructive conversation with HKA, who actually raises interesting responses.

shapenaji · **#65**

pwaldron wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

Tournament Directors and the AGA leadership, you guys exist for landed players, people who have learned the game and love it. You may bring new people to the game on your own time, but on official time, the tournaments, held in disused laboratories with signs emblazoned "beware of the leopard", are simply not visible enough to be what keeps go functioning in this country.

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence.

There's no lack of confidence there, I think tournaments are a lot of fun, and you guys do a good job at them. That's really not my point, this isn't a criticism of you guys, it's an observation. It's not that I believe that you're doing something wrong (Holding tournaments at expensive venues would drive the costs way up and no one would show up).

I suppose It could be taken as a criticism if you believe that the tournaments are the primary reason that people in this country play go. But I don't think the facts support that.

ross · **#66**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

I think that hosting in-person tournaments is the biggest (or at least the most obvious) service the AGA provides. Most people I know who are members originally joined so they could play in a tournament.

I find this interesting. Hosting in-person tournaments is probably the biggest thing the AGA does to gain AGA members, but I don't think it's the biggest thing they do to promote Go. I'd say that the biggest thing they do that actually increases the number of people who play or how often they play is acting as a landing pad for Go clubs around the country. If I want to know where I can play Go nearby, I'll look on usgo.org or post something in the eJournal. In many cases those clubs would exist with or without the AGA, but I don't know how or if I'd be able to find them without the AGA's help. I think that's probably true of many people who play OTB Go in the US—they are able to do so thanks to the AGA.

daniel_the_smith · **#67**

That's true. A lot of people find the Schaumburg Go Club from the AGA website (and having the AGA Chapter logo next to your club seems to really make a difference).

shapenaji · **#68**

HKA wrote:

I must say I find this response quite strange. John referenced folks quitting, so he certainly was not talking about Roy Laird, who did not quit anything, but lost an election.

Well, he said that the "disgraceful hounding" had led to at least one person quitting, he did not specifically comment on what else it led to. If he calls my post to Phil disgraceful hounding, then I'm sure he included my post about Roy Laird, which was much more vehement.

HKA wrote:

As for Phil Waldron, Nick and I have discussed this in the past, and that is why I found his question in his previous post disingenous, which, apparently, it was.

No, it wasn't, I asked the question and was genuinely interested in an answer. The answer didn't have to come from Mr. Fairbairn. That Javaness read the same thing into the post was plenty, since it meant that that's what was coming across to the forum population.

HKA wrote:

You are right, of course, you do not need to defend your AGA contributions to comment here. I am not sure essentially telling Mr. Fairbairn to shut up is consitent with this position however.

No, I did not tell him to shut up, I told him to stop being passive-aggressive. It's very different, if he's got a point to make about a person on here he should make it, and give that person and the community an opportunity to defend themselves.

HKA wrote:

What I find most strange though, is your defense of your AGA "contributions". To my eye, they are almost as nonexistant as they were uneccessary to mention.

All I can see is you invited some important Korean players to the Congress, they did not play, they did not participate, but that is certainly a worthy effort, and may lead to something. I say "may" because, two weekends ago, in the same local area, my Maryland Open was attended by zero Korean players. This is certainly a failure on my part, but shows no sign of any tangible success for your efforts.

Spreading go in your own way is also great, but calling this a contribution to the AGA suffers from a disconnect. Again, I have not seen any new members at the tournament or my club saying they learned from Nick.

The myopia of one man's perspective. I'll ignore the anecdotal method of this argument, or the implication that everyone sees what you see.

Well, if you'll notice, I did not attend the Maryland open, I forgot about it. And so would hardly be in a position to tell them about it. If you'd like, in future I can pass the flyer onto the Korea Times, I'm sure they would be glad to run a short story on it. They're mostly old men, and they don't really use the internet.

You should also recognize that there are issues with the Korean community which keep them from coming to tournaments. And it is highly unlikely that they would start there, at the Congress, the most expensive event the AGA has.

These are issues I've attempted to address through comments on here and in person to people involved. Believe it our not, not all the issues that prevent them from coming are on their side. The AGA seems to be doing nothing to encourage them. Despite how absurdly easy it is to just send Korean Newspapers a memo or have a cash tournament now and then.

Keith, I really don't want to get into a pissing contest with you guys about "who's the best volunteer". If you don't believe that I've spent more time teaching go over the past 9 years than you've spent time holding your club, that's your own lookout, I clearly can't do anything to change it. Do you grill everyone who claims to teach go?

HKA wrote:

Nick, you are a really interesting guy, and you have a skill set that many of the AGA denizons of disused laboratories who love "Beware of the Leopard (?)" signs do not. But I question whether you should consider your laudable efforts to teach and spread go, combined with a palpable attitude towards the AGA that is certainly not positive, as a contribution to the AGA.

(Hitchhiker's guide reference, it's where the city plan for bulldozing Arthur Dent's house was kept)

Sarcasm detector is going off the meter!

If you think I have an antagonistic relationship with the AGA, you're right, some of the time. I'm a scientist, Hypothesis-Antithesis-Synthesis. The Antithesis portion is vital.

HKA wrote:

You are correct, of course, that spreading Go is the key, and Hikaru and other media has done more for that than anything the AGA has done. You go too far when you say the AGA is always absent in these efforts - key AGA folks were involved in the pre Hikaru film "Pi" and certainly were intrumental in getting Janice Kim involved in the Shonen Jump Hikaru in this country and the ejournal seems to have lead the way in better coverage of the WAGC online.

I did not say that it was always absent. I said that it seems absent. Given that Pi was released in 1998, and that media references continue to abound (with nothing in the AGA minutes about them), I'd say my assertion was accurate. (And if the AGA DID have such a hand in Pi, why is it that in the scene where these supposed geniuses play eachother, the board position and the supposed "brilliant move" are both completely absurd?)

As far as Hikaru no Go, Viz media came pretty late to the scene on that. Most of it spread over the internet long before they got there, that's why I highlighted the fansubbers.

The E-Journal does a great job of reporting on go, but it is only received by AGA members, so how exactly does that connect to our discussion of "AGA performing outreach"?

HKA wrote:

Still, despite the growth of go in this country there is still a great untapped and unorganized pool of go players - whether they be Korean or simply online. The problem for American Go is how to harness the energy of these individuals to bring about more go activity in the US. Without organization, this cannot take place.

Right now, the AGA is that organization, even if that makes many here shudder. I think it would be extremely foolish to throw the AGA away. I also think you would have to be blind to not recognize that the AGA is far from perfect, and, in particular, is failing to make any headway in harneshing its own successes and the successes of outside forces.

Who said anything about throwing the AGA away? If I thought the AGA was worthless I would simply stop interacting with it. (I'll still be able to play pretty much the same as I always do, I've only ever been to one tournament abroad, and that was a fluke) I'm arguing because I believe it does have a part to play.

HKA wrote:

The AGA needs to welcome new ideas and new energy. I suppose I am one of the dinosaurs who still believes that we need a structure of clubs and tournaments throughout the country to provide the type of face to face relationships necessary to build.

I would love some input on three issues.

First, general outreach to the public - quite frankly, there are already lots of good ways to do this, including what Nick is doing, but new ideas are great.

Second, how do we "grab" the players already out there and get them involved in the AGA?

Third, how do we raise money? We cannot get any traction with the 2,000 members we have - but what about the ejournal subscription numbers, or KGS members, or IGS, or Smart Go App sales? Do we have a good idea of what the actual "market" of go players in the US is, and how do we approach folks with this info?

First, I think the mission of teaching in schools is the biggest piece (It is being done now to a degree by the AGF), I think this deserves the bulk of the funding. You get kids involved, you end up getting their parents involved too.

To paraphrase (or possibly directly quote) a Tobacco representative, "Hook em while they're young"

Second,
I won't speak for the internet players, because I don't know if that group is necessarily tappable. I think most of those people are familiar with the AGA, but they play online because they don't have the time to spend entire days on tournaments.

The Koreans basically need a few things to start showing up: Cash prizes, advertisements in the local newspapers, and strong players from the AGA regularly attending their clubs so they can see that an AGA tournament will have interesting games for them.

Thirdly, I'd like to preface this with "I'm not sure". There's an interesting phenomenon though in backgammon which continues to bring in money (and bear in mind, this is just a nutty idea off the top of my head). The backgammon tournaments, far from being low priced (there is not a lot of outreach), are absurdly high priced, with gigantic prizes.

They skim a lot off the top. But strange as it seems, this actually increases the number of players available. (Further, there is a phenomenon where wealthy persons will "invest" in a player by fronting their entry fee in return for a share of the winnings.)

These tournaments wouldn't be the norm, but could drum up a lot of money once in a while.

redponey · **#69**

HKA wrote:

I would love some input on three issues.

First, general outreach to the public - quite frankly, there are already lots of good ways to do this, including what Nick is doing, but new ideas are great.

Second, how do we "grab" the players already out there and get them involved in the AGA?

Third, how do we raise money? We cannot get any traction with the 2,000 members we have - but what about the ejournal subscription numbers, or KGS members, or IGS, or Smart Go App sales? Do we have a good idea of what the actual "market" of go players in the US is, and how do we approach folks with this info?

I have some input. Sorry in advance for the long post and long paragraphs.

I think the issues of outreach, getting people involved in the AGA, and raising money are all closely related. Of course there are differences, but to a large degree, the simple/stupid answer to all three areas is to offer something of value to folks. I don't mean to be over-simplifying, but I think it's relevant to all those areas, and I think the suggestions I have are all related to this.

First, one area of value that the AGA could offer is doing a lot more to help go players connect with each other, especially in the real world, but also online. I used to be a (paying) member of the AGA and run a local AGA-member club, when the contact info for the club changed, it took multiple requests and over 2 years to get that info updated on the AGA website. I was happy to point people in the right direction, but the club listing page is already a very minor effort to help players connect. This web site and KGS have been much more instrumental to me in connecting to other go players than the AGA, and that's sad. Whether paying members or not, the AGA could do much more to try to help facilitate helping go players and clubs to make themselves known to others, and to help interested go players find each other and clubs. Why not a listing/search service? Why not hosting club web pages, or offering a free online service for running a club? There are club rooms on KGS with chat there when people are logged in, but there is no centralized place I can go to find local players, or to find players of similar strength and interest who would like to create a consistent online relationship (like a club meeting), etc. I think there are a lot of other things along the same lines which could help go players connect to each other, and I think the AGA could get a lot of good will and, more importantly, capture the "attention" of a large audience by offering something like this. Maybe it would be cleaver (organized) use of existing systems, maybe it would be a new custom-made service, but I think something like this is very work considering. I realize this type of project would take some effort (see my next comment).

Second, as far as getting stuff done like my suggestion above, as well as a million other projects, I think there needs to be a lot more done to harness the work of volunteers. My experience is that volunteers are most effective when working on something they have interest in. So helping with tournaments is great, but there are lots of other projects as well. Programming ideas like mine above, various outreach stuff, all sorts of things. Why not have a place where folks interested in volunteering (again, paid AGA member or not) can go and 1) see projects are available for volunteering on (including self-starter/self-directed projects) and how to connect with other folks coordinating and working on those projects, and 2) submit suggestions for projects they think they would like to see done or would like to work on? Again, this would take either time or technology or both just to get something like this going, but I think it would be worth it.

Third, while I don't know much about the inner workings of the AGA, I get the feeling that it's a bit conservative as far as trying new things. Why not try some stuff, like my suggestions above, and see what happens? I come from a background of very structured software development, and tend to approach projects as "we must figure everything out on paper before we act", but I'm learning to appreciate that there are plenty of times that the best thing to do is act/assess/act/assess/etc. Someone offers the AGA use of a tournament pairing program they are working on, and it's not quite what was hoped for? Why not give it a try and encourage the person making the offer? It could be better than the nothing they have now. Of course, it could be worse than that, so of course each situation needs to be evaluated individually, and I don't know the specifics of that one that was recently discussed, so I don't want to judge. Also, abviously things like rules for official representatives to international events are a bit of a different story, but that's not I'm talking about. The gist of my suggestion is to give some stuff a try, get some projects going, evaluate the successes and failures, let the complainers do their thing, and then move on to the next stage. Get some momentum going behind various projects, it's a powerful thing. Easier said than done of course, but still worth doing.

Fourth, raising money. Well this is tough of course. Money would help with all sorts of things, including my other suggestions above. And again, providing something of value is pretty key here. Access to tournaments it good, but I joined the AGA and paid the dues because I wanted to support the organization, and I suspect that may be true of many folks, and especially for a lot of *potential* members. I like the journal and all, but fundamentally I wanted to feel there was a community I belonged to, and I never really did. I think some of my other suggestions above would encourage people to become paid members by the same logic, so my suggestion to some degree is "build it at they will come". Make the AGA the "host" of a much more visible, active, dynamic community, and offer things to those community members that will help raise money. There is already a great online forum (yeah L19!), so that's been done (but someone from the AGA could post here actively on it's behalf). There is already a great online English go server (yeah KGS!) and several other alternatives, so that's been done (but someone from the AGA could organize a non-rating tournament there). The AGA could arrange strong players to give lectures to weaker players. They could help a bit more with local outreach (I have 10,000 black and 10,000 white tiddly-winks in my basement and a one-page 9x9 board pdf and a one-page set of rules I use to create starter sets that cost less than $0.50 each to give away). They could use social media (I know it's over-done, but it's something to consider). The AGA could sell books or equipment I suppose, but that would undermine the retailers who we want to keep around, so maybe not. There is already a lot of good software out there. Perhaps sponsor the free versions of some of the software to get a mention? Or sponsoring things like this site? Not that folks like that would want sponsorship of that type, and it costs money (it takes money to make money, right?). I'm rambling, but basically, I guess my suggestion here boils down to "get people to like you by offering them things they want, then ask them for money". Again, easier said than done, but far from impossible.

I could probably come up with several more unfocused suggestions if I spent some time at it, but I'll stop here (for now).

vash3g · **#70**

shapenaji wrote:

The E-Journal does a great job of reporting on go, but it is only received by AGA members, so how exactly does that connect to our discussion of "AGA performing outreach"?

Currently the E-Journal has a Members Edition which is sent to all current AGA Members, this is around 2000 people.
The E-Journal also has a non-Members Edition which is anyone who wants to sign up. The current number of subscribers worldwide? over 14,000

daniel_the_smith · **#71**

Those are interesting thoughts. I really like the idea of the AGA instigating/sponsoring/hosting a large KGS tournament, where at least the preliminary rounds are not rated by the AGA (both to reduce red tape and encourage participation).

That made me think: perhaps the AGA could pay for a pro to do some lectures--KGS+ style--that would be available to AGA members. I can't imagine one or two of those per month would break the bank.

Regarding getting club info on the AGA's page: I don't know why it is consistently such a big problem, but for everyone I know (including me) who has tried to get something on that page to change, it has taken multiple emails and weeks.

Phelan · **#72**

redponey wrote:

(but someone from the AGA could post here actively on it's behalf).

This is the only thing I feel I can comment on. The AGA has several representatives signed up here, and they've posted about AGA issues. MAybe they could have an official AGA account to increase visibility, but they've posted.

shapenaji · **#73**

vash3g wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

The E-Journal does a great job of reporting on go, but it is only received by AGA members, so how exactly does that connect to our discussion of "AGA performing outreach"?

Currently the E-Journal has a Members Edition which is sent to all current AGA Members, this is around 2000 people.
The E-Journal also has a non-Members Edition which is anyone who wants to sign up. The current number of subscribers worldwide? over 14,000

Are you arguing that the subscribers worldwide are actually in the US?

I think it's much more likely that you're getting the go playing populations of a number of other countries, no? If that's the case, it's hardly outreach.

vash3g · **#74**

redponey wrote:

First, one area of value that the AGA could offer is doing a lot more to help go players connect with each other, especially in the real world, but also online. I used to be a (paying) member of the AGA and run a local AGA-member club, when the contact info for the club changed, it took multiple requests and over 2 years to get that info updated on the AGA website. I was happy to point people in the right direction, but the club listing page is already a very minor effort to help players connect. This web site and KGS have been much more instrumental to me in connecting to other go players than the AGA, and that's sad. Whether paying members or not, the AGA could do much more to try to help facilitate helping go players and clubs to make themselves known to others, and to help interested go players find each other and clubs. Why not a listing/search service? Why not hosting club web pages, or offering a free online service for running a club? There are club rooms on KGS with chat there when people are logged in, but there is no centralized place I can go to find local players, or to find players of similar strength and interest who would like to create a consistent online relationship (like a club meeting), etc. I think there are a lot of other things along the same lines which could help go players connect to each other, and I think the AGA could get a lot of good will and, more importantly, capture the "attention" of a large audience by offering something like this. Maybe it would be cleaver (organized) use of existing systems, maybe it would be a new custom-made service, but I think something like this is very work considering. I realize this type of project would take some effort (see my next comment).

AGA does one of those and is moving toward a second. Current we have a number of chapters hosted at http://chapters.usgo.org. Click on that link or send an email to webmaster@usgo.org and I can help get space for your club.

Have you looked at our chapters page lately? It does get updated and I know its old web tech. We are currently waiting on one database to go live so we can start switching that code out for code developed for http://www.promotego.org. This will be beneficial for you guys since it will have a login system for updating and helping people find your club.

redponey wrote:

Third, while I don't know much about the inner workings of the AGA, I get the feeling that it's a bit conservative as far as trying new things. Why not try some stuff, like my suggestions above, and see what happens? I come from a background of very structured software development, and tend to approach projects as "we must figure everything out on paper before we act", but I'm learning to appreciate that there are plenty of times that the best thing to do is act/assess/act/assess/etc. Someone offers the AGA use of a tournament pairing program they are working on, and it's not quite what was hoped for? Why not give it a try and encourage the person making the offer? It could be better than the nothing they have now. Of course, it could be worse than that, so of course each situation needs to be evaluated individually, and I don't know the specifics of that one that was recently discussed, so I don't want to judge. Also, abviously things like rules for official representatives to international events are a bit of a different story, but that's not I'm talking about. The gist of my suggestion is to give some stuff a try, get some projects going, evaluate the successes and failures, let the complainers do their thing, and then move on to the next stage. Get some momentum going behind various projects, it's a powerful thing. Easier said than done of course, but still worth doing.

Current projects being worked on(to my knowledge): AGAGD, Ratings system, Membership DB, Chapters DB(pretty much done), moving to google apps, finding a cms for the website

redponey wrote:

Fourth, raising money. Well this is tough of course. Money would help with all sorts of things, including my other suggestions above. And again, providing something of value is pretty key here. Access to tournaments it good, but I joined the AGA and paid the dues because I wanted to support the organization, and I suspect that may be true of many folks, and especially for a lot of *potential* members. I like the journal and all, but fundamentally I wanted to feel there was a community I belonged to, and I never really did. I think some of my other suggestions above would encourage people to become paid members by the same logic, so my suggestion to some degree is "build it at they will come". Make the AGA the "host" of a much more visible, active, dynamic community, and offer things to those community members that will help raise money. There is already a great online forum (yeah L19!), so that's been done (but someone from the AGA could post here actively on it's behalf). There is already a great online English go server (yeah KGS!) and several other alternatives, so that's been done (but someone from the AGA could organize a non-rating tournament there). The AGA could arrange strong players to give lectures to weaker players. They could help a bit more with local outreach (I have 10,000 black and 10,000 white tiddly-winks in my basement and a one-page 9x9 board pdf and a one-page set of rules I use to create starter sets that cost less than $0.50 each to give away). They could use social media (I know it's over-done, but it's something to consider). The AGA could sell books or equipment I suppose, but that would undermine the retailers who we want to keep around, so maybe not. There is already a lot of good software out there. Perhaps sponsor the free versions of some of the software to get a mention? Or sponsoring things like this site? Not that folks like that would want sponsorship of that type, and it costs money (it takes money to make money, right?). I'm rambling, but basically, I guess my suggestion here boils down to "get people to like you by offering them things they want, then ask them for money". Again, easier said than done, but far from impossible.

I could probably come up with several more unfocused suggestions if I spent some time at it, but I'll stop here (for now).

Currently Andy Okun is leading a group of people to try and get sponsors/advertisers to put the AGA deeper in the Black. Right now we have accepted one advertiser that has their links on the bottom of each page and are in talks with a second. We are always looking for more leads and a number of us are working to get more.

vash3g · **#75**

shapenaji wrote:

vash3g wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

The E-Journal does a great job of reporting on go, but it is only received by AGA members, so how exactly does that connect to our discussion of "AGA performing outreach"?

Currently the E-Journal has a Members Edition which is sent to all current AGA Members, this is around 2000 people.
The E-Journal also has a non-Members Edition which is anyone who wants to sign up. The current number of subscribers worldwide? over 14,000

Are you arguing that the subscribers worldwide are actually in the US?

I think it's much more likely that you're getting the go playing populations of a number of other countries, no? If that's the case, it's hardly outreach.

I'm saying that the numbers worldwide are the number of people in the system that sends out the E-Journal. I know that not all of them are living in the US. The same could be said for any go mailing list, not everyone is from the country that it is originating from.

Javaness · **#76**

shapenaji wrote:

EDIT: I want to make clear, the AGF is another ballgame, you guys rock

The AGF does seem like a nice organisation to me too, and Mr Laird is on its board - which makes me feel that he has always been out there to do good work, despite the high profile mistake he made.

It is a pity Phil Waldron left, as he seemed very competent. Although I have to admit I had briefly forgotten he'd left

If Phil had been doing the spot tournament I feel that I would have announced all the games at the moment they started.

shapenaji · **#77**

Javaness wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

EDIT: I want to make clear, the AGF is another ballgame, you guys rock

The AGF does seem like a nice organisation to me too, and Mr Laird is on its board - which makes me feel that he has always been out there to do good work, despite the high profile mistake he made.

It is a pity Phil Waldron left, as he seemed very competent. Although I have to admit I had briefly forgotten he'd left

If Phil had been doing the spot tournament I feel that I would have announced all the games at the moment they started.

I took issue with Mr. Laird's actions on the Jie Li/Ming-jiu debacle. But it's nice to hear he has a deep interest in go education and outreach.

I agree with the second point completely, though I would give Edward Zhang a break, it was his first tournament.

deja · **#78**

vash3g wrote:

AGA does one of those and is moving toward a second. Current we have a number of chapters hosted at http://chapters.usgo.org. Click on that link or send an email to webmaster@usgo.org and I can help get space for your club.

Have you looked at our chapters page lately? It does get updated and I know its old web tech. We are currently waiting on one database to go live so we can start switching that code out for code developed for http://www.promotego.org. This will be beneficial for you guys since it will have a login system for updating and helping people find your club.

Current projects being worked on(to my knowledge): AGAGD, Ratings system, Membership DB, Chapters DB(pretty much done), moving to google apps, finding a cms for the website

Currently Andy Okun is leading a group of people to try and get sponsors/advertisers to put the AGA deeper in the Black. Right now we have accepted one advertiser that has their links on the bottom of each page and are in talks with a second. We are always looking for more leads and a number of us are working to get more.

Thank you for those informative updates, vash3g. And while I have your ear, a quick suggestion/request. Would you consider giving the club links their own exclusive meta-link in the sidebar - "Local Clubs" or something like that – rather than placing them under "Play Go"? More generally, I think the website's navigation could be a little more intuitive than it currently is. Apologies if this was off topic.

daniel_the_smith · **#79**

Helel wrote:

I will not ask you guys to try to get along, I fear you haven't got it in you. But lets keep the aggressions passive and the insults witty. It will make for nicer reading.

I nominate Helel for "most consistent (and consistently entertaining) forum personality"

tj86430 · **#80**

Helel wrote:

I really think it is better to say "I'm a researcher". When you use the term "scientist" people will read in a "mad" before it. ;-)

Not everybody :cool:

The AGA makes me sad.

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