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How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in China?
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Author:  Drew [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:44 am ]
Post subject:  How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in China?
The Chinese government issues official amateur weiqi ranks, from 1 to 6, via annual exam (tournament?). I'm curious if anyone knows how these shoudan compare to online amateur shoudan in the various playing communities. Do we have any official Chinese shoudan at L19? Or someone with playing experience against them?

Just curious!
Author:  Krama [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
If we could only read chinese...
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
Quote:
The Chinese government issues official amateur weiqi ranks, from 1 to 6, via annual exam (tournament?). I'm curious if anyone knows how these shoudan compare to online amateur shoudan in the various playing communities. Do we have any official Chinese shoudan at L19? Or someone with playing experience against them?


That's not actually what the site says, and it's out of date anyway as there are now 8-dans.

And it's "shodan".
Author:  Drew [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
John Fairbairn wrote:
That's not actually what the site says, and it's out of date anyway as there are now 8-dans.

And it's "shodan".


Thank you for the corrections. Do you have any info on rank equivalence? Is a shodan the same as KGS 1D?
Author:  illluck [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
The Chinese dan ranks used to be quite strict, but has been inflating for the past couple of decades. The "real life" ranks up to 5d can vary widely in strength depending on the region and when the ranks were earned (it's not uncommon a relatively strong 5d can give a relatively weaker 5d 3 stones). Apparently the ranks for children is also "softer" than adults (though I'm not sure if it's because the children ranks are earned in more recent tournaments). Consequently, I think people are actually placing more reliance on online ranks. I'm not super familiar with what an offline 1d would be, but it seems like a lot of people are saying it could be anywhere between 4k and 2d Tygem (with even more extreme lower bounds, but I'm not sure how much to trust them).
Author:  ZeroKun [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
If I remember correctly, the reason for the 5 dan dependency is due to how 6 dan is obtained. I think for 6 dan it was 1st place in a regional tournament and 7 dan is from a national tournament.
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
When I was in Beijing in 2007 I played a few games with Chinese kids at Go schools. I don't remember playing a 1d, but did play some 4ds. I was around KGS 2-3d at the time (and KGS ranks have got a little tougher since I think). Some 4ds crushed me, others were a similar strength to me. So making some wild extrapolations from that would say a Chinese kid 1d at those schools is probably weaker than a KGS 1d.
Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
When I was in Hangzhou three years ago, at weak KGS 3d or so, I played a lot of Chinese 4-5d kids. I had better than even win rate against 4d and lost most games against 5d. 1d was 3-4 stones weaker than me, I think.
Author:  cdybeijing [ Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
1 dan is not the greatest reference to pick. Generally when adult hobbyist players are discussing ranks in China they will not refer to anyone as less than 1 dan. I have seldom met an adult player with an official certificate, but casual clubs still tend to have an implicit understanding of ranks based on how far off they are from the genuine 5 dan amateurs they know.

There is generally very little confidence expressed about any rank lower than 3 dan. I think casual 3 dan in China is probably around 1 dan KGS.
Author:  Elom [ Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
1: Professional ranks, based on ACHIEVEMENTS And NOT STRENGTH. However, achievements can loosely correlate with strength.
2: Amateur ranks in Europe and America, Based on STRENGTH and NOT ACHEIVEMENTS. However, strength can loosely correlate with achievements.

I think we have a different idea of what Amateur ranks are in the west than in the east these days.

In the west, when not referring to an online rank, we are usually referring to EGF or AGA ranks. These are based solely on strict win/loss ratios against other rated players, not how many tournaments you won. So you can have an estimate of your Rank without too much difficulty.

In Korea, Dan ranks have nothing to do with strength. Rather, they are amateur p-ranks. Causing for a lot of confusion in the west. In china, Dan ranks are half'n'half based on achievements and strength, I think.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Elom wrote:
In Korea, Dan ranks have nothing to do with strength.
Rather, they are amateur p-ranks.
Hi Elom, could you elaborate. I don't understand what you're saying.
For example, what is an "amateur p-rank" ? What does 'p' mean ?
Also, are you referring to N. or S. Korea, or both ?
Author:  Elom [ Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
EdLee wrote:
Elom wrote:
In Korea, Dan ranks have nothing to do with strength.
Rather, they are amateur p-ranks.
Hi Elom, could you elaborate. I don't understand what you're saying.
For example, what is an "amateur p-rank" ? What does 'p' mean ?
Also, are you referring to N. or S. Korea, or both ?


Hello EdLee,

There is a little pun here. And it really wan't intended! From what I know, apart from 'buying' dan certificates after taking tests (compared to rating points in the west) something that I only know for sure happens noticeably in Japan, Dan ranks in South Korea are awarded primarily upon the winning of a certain level of tournament. So mister B can come second place in xyz tournament for 5 consecutive years and be 5d. Mister A can come 10th place for 4 years and win once and become 6th Dan. Obviously this is a ggeneralization, for example you may be awarded 6th Dan for coming second many times, but the point is that kyu ranks are reserved for strength, possibly with an open bottom, and Dan ranks are fir acheivements-' exactly like professional ranks. (it is no surprise when Tang Seizing used to beat other "less known" 9p's as a 5p)

So you end up having gup-ranked YeungSueng as strong as some 5 dans.

I do not know much about North Korea, :( but They had professional level athletes in the MSG 2008. With kyu ranks.

I also do not know very much about China :( but I suspect that part of the large difference in playing ability within ranks are due to a half-and-half system.

The pun here is that many of the Koreans with "Amateur Pro" ranks are what would be considered "Amateur Professionals", or even, "Professional Amatuers"!
Author:  Solomon [ Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
To add another data point: Practically lived in the Beijing Go Center a few years ago, played evenly against 4d players there, on TOM/Tygem their strength was typically 6-7d and my KGS rank was 4d. Anyone in the club who considered themselves 5d were typically 8-9d TOM/Tygem, which is something like KGS 6-9d.
Author:  Loons [ Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How strong is the official "Amateur Shoudan" rank in Chi
Contextually, I have a(n official, amateur (;p)) Chinese 1d. I don't think I've changed strength much since then.

CdyBeijing has the right of it in my experience.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Elom, Thanks for the clarification. :)

Drew wrote:
Quote:
And it's "shodan".
Thank you for the corrections.
Hi Drew, you can still use the "edit" button to fix your typos in this thread's title, and in your posts. :)
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