Hi fanfan, Does B resist or pass forever when W moves each time ?
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| The nearly minimal problem http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11240 |
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| Author: | fanfan [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | The nearly minimal problem |
Hello, For many (many) years, i ask beginners to solve the following problem, that I call "the nearly minimal problem": on an empty goban, Black plays at the 1-1 point, then White tries to make a living group with a white stone on the 1-1 (the word "with" is important). Easy? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi fanfan, Does B resist or pass forever when W moves each time ? |
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| Author: | fanfan [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
Of course, Black replies and tries to kill White. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
fanfan wrote: Of course, Black replies and tries to kill White. Thanks for clarifying. The "of course" part was not obvious, since for raw beginners, we sometimes "pass forever" to teach them some things.If B resists, it's not obvious to me this can be done, nor does this appear to be a problem for raw beginners. Just to be very clear, when you say beginners, do you mean they know only the most basic rules ? Do they "know" about ladders ? Do they "know" about real eyes and false eyes ? Please clarify. |
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| Author: | fanfan [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
Hello, I ask beginners to solve this problem just to train them. But you are right : this is a difficult problem. Here, my aim is to determine who will win the figth since I am not sure myself to be able to solve this problem. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:32 am ] |
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fanfan wrote: I am not sure myself to be able to solve this problem. Hi fanfan, I feel it's important and fair to warn the "beginners" you don't know if this problem has a solution.  Also, I don't think this is appropriate for raw beginners.
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| Author: | MMaestro [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
When I was running my club before, I used to have a friend who would teach beginners in a similar way, except he would play on the 2-1 point, not the 1-1. I think for the 1-1 point, white can simply play the 2-2 point and keep extending each time black pushes. But for the 2-1 point, the shoulderhit is more difficult because black's pushes actually gain eyespace |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
fanfan wrote: Hello, For many (many) years, i ask beginners to solve the following problem, that I call "the nearly minimal problem": on an empty goban, Black plays at the 1-1 point, then White tries to make a living group with a white stone on the 1-1 (the word "with" is important). Why? |
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| Author: | fanfan [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
MMaestro wrote: ... for the 1-1 point, white can simply play the 2-2 point and keep extending each time black pushes... If White plays on the 2-2 point, Black plays at the 3-3 point, and it is not obvious that White can take the 1-1 and play at the 1-1 later without dying. For instance: |
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| Author: | fanfan [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
Bill Spight wrote: Why? This is just a problem that could be of some interest. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
I could just about understand you posing that problem to teach Batoo, the Korean baduk variant that adds Starcraft-style visuals and bonus points for occupying certain squares, but what's the point for Go? Do you find it engages and encourages beginners, teaching them useful Go skills? Because I'm a 4d so pretty good at Go compared to a beginner but after my initial "WTF?!" struggle with that problem. I think this is a better minimal problem for beginners: |
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| Author: | fanfan [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
Uberdude wrote: Do you find it engages and encourages beginners... Forget the word "Beginners". I used the term just to introduce the problem. I agree that it is not the first thing to show to a beginner. |
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| Author: | PeterN [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
My first instinct on looking at this was to laugh and think it was easy... then I thought about it a bit more and went  .I'm suspecting this may be a situation where the only winning move is not to play  (or tenuki at least).And yes I know that completely avoids the question. PeterN |
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| Author: | Charlie [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
Er... I still don't get it. For instance, the problem doesn't say that you have to capture the black stone, only make a living group that happens to have a stone at 1-1. I'm fairly certain white can make life after this  ... |
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| Author: | oca [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
that's a fail so far for me  |
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| Author: | fanfan [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
Charlie wrote: Er... I still don't get it. For instance, the problem doesn't say that you have to capture the black stone, only make a living group that happens to have a stone at 1-1... How do you expect to put a white stone on the 1-1 without capturing the black stone which is already on the 1-1? |
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| Author: | fanfan [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
@Charlie @oca |
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| Author: | MMaestro [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
@fanfan: For that position you end up with, I recommend looking at gengen gokyo http://eidogo.com/#4rmBZ5MFq |
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| Author: | fanfan [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
Hello, Don't forget that White has to fill the 1-1 point with a white stone to claim victory. That means that if White just try to live on the edge, he has to make 3 eyes (the one at the 1-1 point that he will fill, and two other eyes to live)! |
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| Author: | MMaestro [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The nearly minimal problem |
Ah I didn't catch that. In that case though, the 3-3 point seems fine: http://eidogo.com/#Coif89KX |
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