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Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
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Author:  Ahwahnee [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
Per the forum's advice, I'll probably be setting-up an account for blitz games. It'll settle at about 11k since I'm currently at 9k when not playing blitz. That's assuming that the adage holds that a player loses about 2 stones of strength when playing fast games.

I suppose it's reasonable to assume that a match between a solidly-ranked slow player against a solidly-ranked blitz player player would probably be an uneven match from the get go. Is that correct? After all, the blitz player now has the luxury of more time and can use that for deeper reading. The blitz player may, in fact, be 2 stones stronger than the ranking system would indicate.
Author:  Loons [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
I don't think this is necessarily true. I think it's possible that people who are bad at reading can be good at kyu blitz, because the short time makes their opponent also bad at reading. This is my impression between fast and medium automatches ( I have yet to try blitz). I am reasonably weaker in fast games but so are my opponents.
Author:  freegame [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
Quote:
It'll settle at about 11k since I'm currently at 9k when not playing blitz. That's assuming that the adage holds that a player loses about 2 stones of strength when playing fast games.

If it was true that everyone loses around two stones when playing blitz, then you would still be 9k, because your opponents will also have to play fast and lose two stones. (This would make the blitz rating system as a whole weaker, but keep your rank constant)

losing or gaining stones can indeed depend on the game time, but it is strictly personal what that change in strength will be. Some gain ranks when playing fast compared to playing slow. This usually is the case fore people who lack reading skills. Those people will not be able to take full advantage of the extra time in normal games.
Author:  Darrell [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
Ahwahnee wrote:
the blitz player now has the luxury of more time and can use that for deeper reading.

The trick is to take more than 20 seconds to make your move. The blitz player will get bored and distracted.

The blitz player plays intuitively. He is not used to deep reading. He is used to getting away with over-plays, so play solid and punish his unreasonable moves.
Author:  Jonas [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
Ahwahnee wrote:
[...]
I suppose it's reasonable to assume that a match between a solidly-ranked slow player against a solidly-ranked blitz player player would probably be an uneven match from the get go. Is that correct? After all, the blitz player now has the luxury of more time and can use that for deeper reading. The blitz player may, in fact, be 2 stones stronger than the ranking system would indicate.


When playing blitz you confide in your shape-recognition, a good blitz player doesnt read much faster then a normal go player, he simply plays most of his move based on intuition.
If you take f.e. Joaz, he mentioned that he draws his go-strength from deep reading, much tewari analyses etc. - he is the exact opposite of a blitz-player (read his malk-games to comfirm this ^^).

Assume both players have the same rank @ kgs and are paired against each other. Who do you think will win? I'm pretty sure it depends on the timesettings. If it is a quick/blitz game, Joaz cant play his trumps and the blitz-player can put his 'feeling' to work. I guess this could make the impression that the blitz-player is two stones stronger.

But if you put it the other way around and both play with a long thinking time, I have no doubt that Joaz will shred his opponent and wipe the floor with him.

All at all I just wanna say that the strength of the players cant be compared so easily. It depends on the actual gamesettings which player holds the advantage. But to become a better player it'd be good to train every aspect, your reading ability (tsumego), your pattern/shape-recognition (pro games) your analyse abilities (reviewing) and maybe the most important thing: positional judgement (knowledge from books, game-experience).

If you feel that your intuition is very poor, playing some blitzgames will be very helpful.

P.S.: Sry Joaz for taking you as an example, but the first definitly NOT-blitz player who came to my mind were you ;-)
Author:  rouyakun [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
When I play blitz I am 6k-5k and that is against a blitz player too.
Author:  Mike [ Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
I lose 5 or so stones, maybe even more, when playing blitz. My studying over the past 3 years hasn't included enough games(certainly not fast ones, I only play slow) I suppose, so many basic things like shape don't just "come" to me. I can make the right moves, given enough time, but with blitz.. I usually have time for either a quick local read or a quick global glance, not both. I just recently made a blitz account to get some practice(and it's indeed 5 stones weaker than my real one), as I'm pretty sure if I could play a better blitz, it would also improve my normal speed game. Ohh if my teacher saw the games on that one, though... The horror.
Author:  rouyakun [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
I just lost a game where I was winning like a hundred pts in a 1x10 sec blitz against a 6k because my net lagged... OTL Right after my moved showed up on the board I already lost with time. lol

So I guess time is really a factor and to add to that, your net connection if you play online. -_-'

But yeah I feel that blitz makes you and your opponent a few stones weaker.
Author:  entropi [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
I don't have a blitz account but if I had one it would definitely be weaker. Probably because my intuition is even worse than my reading.

On the other hand, there is one advantage for me in blitz that my opponent does not have time to count precisely. I don't count even in slow games anyway.
Author:  Li Kao [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
I think the main difference between fast and slow games is attitude and patience to think before each move. I'm used to 10:00+5*0:20 games on KGS and I definitely don't profit as much from additional time as other players. And I think it's mainly due to impatience.
So I lose to players in serious/tournament game that I wouldn't lose to in a normal game.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
I think I might be slightly weaker in blitz against a 1k blitz player than I am against a 1k slower-timed player in a slower time setting. So, if a blitz player and I were to face off, the winner could very well be dependent on the time settings. I do not think the blitz player would be able to read better than me given a long-time setting simply because they're used to reading fast in blitz.

One thing I have noticed in my occasional blitz games is that they tend to be incredibly violent, with cuts, overplays, and dead groups all over the place. My id is obviously much more aggressive than my ego.
Author:  Shaddy [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
I am mostly a blitz player, but in slow games I think am also capable of using my time and reading more deeply (well, I do use more time, but of course I can't possibly know if I'm reading more or less than my opponent is). So it's not true that blitz players are wholly incapable of playing slow games - I just play blitz because I like fast, action-y games more than long drawn-out ones.
Author:  Exologist [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
There's a thing though: where do you draw the line between blitz and slow game? Perhaps I'm used to 4+ hour games, so a 1 hour game would need more of that intuition talked about. :D
Author:  Li Kao [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Slow player vs blitz player = Uneven match?
FlamingMetroidzd wrote:
There's a thing though: where do you draw the line between blitz and slow game?

That's Easy. Exactly at my speed. Everybody who plays faster than me is blitzing, everybody who takes longer is slow as a slug.
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