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Which games would one call go
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11554		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Matti [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:09 am ]
Post subject:  Which games would one call go
Go is played with various rules and there are also variatoins of the game. Which do you think deserve to be called go? Which ones do need a prefix for word go?

    Go with Japanese rules, 6.5 komi
    Go with Chinese rules, 7.5 komi
    Go with Ing rules, 7.5 (or 8) komi
    Go with some other rules
    Go with no komi
    Go with Hahn system
    Bangneki
    Pair Go
    13*13 go
    9*9 go
    Other, insert you variant
Author:  DrStraw [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which games would one call go
They are all go, of course, as the word "go" is in the description.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which games would one call go
Matti wrote:
Go with Hahn system
Bangneki


These I do not consider go, but games / go variants closely related to go because strategy and risk-strategy differ greatly.
Author:  Matti [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which games would one call go
RobertJasiek wrote:
Matti wrote:
Go with Hahn system
Bangneki


These I do not consider go, but games / go variants closely related to go because strategy and risk-strategy differ greatly.


Go with non integer komi allows two results: black wins or white wins. Go with no komi or with integer komi allows a third results: jigo. Hahn system allows ten different results. On how many different results would you draw the line between go and go like game?

Also from the view point of a single player pair go seems to differ from go.
Author:  RBerenguel [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which games would one call go
Matti wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
Matti wrote:
Go with Hahn system
Bangneki


These I do not consider go, but games / go variants closely related to go because strategy and risk-strategy differ greatly.


Go with non integer komi allows two results: black wins or white wins. Go with no komi or with integer komi allows a third results: jigo. Hahn system allows ten different results. On how many different results would you draw the line between go and go like game?

Also from the view point of a single player pair go seems to differ from go.


I'd stick with at most 3 possible results as "go," to keep with tradition. Bangneki or Hahn would be minor variations to spice them up, but I'd still consider them "go in spirit." Pair go, blitzkrieg go, one-color go would all be amusement tricks to have some fun. As for different sizes, all go. Maybe going smaller than 7 or 5 starts bending too much weight to the rulesets, though, but I'd still consider them full-fledged go.
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which games would one call go
Matti wrote:
Go with non integer komi allows two results: black wins or white wins. Go with no komi or with integer komi allows a third results: jigo.


Actually (depending on ruleset) normal Go with non integer komi has a 3rd result (and 4th for integer komi): "No result" for quadruple kos and the like (e.g. that Lee Sedol Gu Li game last year), which is different from jigo. Also you have referee results like both players lose for disqualifications.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which games would one call go
Matti wrote:
Go with non integer komi allows two results: black wins or white wins. Go with no komi or with integer komi allows a third results: jigo. Hahn system allows ten different results. On how many different results would you draw the line between go and go like game?


Jigo / no jigo creates different strategy for sure. However, the impact on strategy is only small because, in practise from the POV of human skill, the affects only (late) endgame decisions.

Komi / no komi produces also only a small impact because it shifts the threshold of where a player wins, and then every player still aims at winning. Ok, one must play a bit harder (riskier) as White and can afford to play softer as Black. Otherwise, the strategies are the same.

Hahn is not just different because of 10 different results. Much more importantly a) there is no equivalence of all win scores any longer, b) there are steps of different scores having equal results, so one can make 9 points mistakes but the 10th point is sharp, c) there is an upper score so that skills of creating very great scores (such as when killing a tremendous group to defend one's center moyo) are not rewarded appropriately. All these aspects affect strategy greatly throughout the game. To start with, I would never build a big center moyo under the Hahn system.
Author:  YeGO [ Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which games would one call go
I think it's difficult to answer this type of question objectively. One could reasonably call of those games go (or at least some variant thereof).

One could also arbitrarily classify these into different levels of capturing the essence of the game. However, trying to rank the rule sets is perhaps as much about personal preference as it is political and controversial.
Author:  wineandgolover [ Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which games would one call go
TIL - the Hahn system. Wow that's great. Combine this with bltz and you'd have an awesome TV show. The Weiqi X Games!

To answer OP - they are all go, imho.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which games would one call go
To me, the game does not fundamentally change with the handicap, the komi, or the size of the board. The rules and the goal stay the same.

I feel it is a different but related game when the basic rules or the goal of the game is changed, so bangneki, hahn system (or e.g. capture go) I would not just call "go".

Pair go is a grey area. Though the rules or goal do not fundamentally change, there is an extra consideration during play along the lines of "will my partner understand my plan from this move?" or "does this sequence have difficult moves on the weaker player's turn?"
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