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How do you stop thinking about rank?
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Author:  Kirby [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  How do you stop thinking about rank?
It's almost a cliche in the go community that a player should not worry about rank - just on playing the game well.

At the same time, more than with other skills, one's go rank becomes apparent.

How does one rid themselves of rank obsession? Is it even something worth getting rid of?
Author:  topazg [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Personally, I think it is worth it. The only value I have of my rank is as a guide to the value of my comments on teaching material, and to find reasonably easily matched opponents. Actually getting it up for its own sake does not interest me - At some point, I think perhaps I should try to get a solid rank on KGS again, as I think I'm probably capable of steadily holding 2d now, but for some reason I can never find the motivation to try.

Despite that, my enjoyment of the game itself (playing, discussing, analysing, thinking about) has gone up rather than down despite the lack of seriousness.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
I've heard you say that before, and always been jealous of the worry-free state you exist in. Any suggestions for getting there?
Author:  topazg [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Chew Terr wrote:
I've heard you say that before, and always been jealous of the worry-free state you exist in. Any suggestions for getting there?


'fraid not :) :)

I think actually watching pro games, enjoying discussing games played by a third party with other people, and doing things very related to go but unrelated to my own games and ability has helped me worry less about my rank.

I also suspect the fact that I am in a worry-free state about most aspects of my life helps ;)
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Interestingly, I am in a "worry state" in most aspects of life :)
Author:  topazg [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Kirby wrote:
Interestingly, I am in a "worry state" in most aspects of life :)


Yes, I suspect they are related in both of our cases :)
Author:  Magicwand [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
i think everyone wants their rank to be higher. (including me)
recently my kgs rank went up 3d to 4d. now i am having taugh time giving 2 stone handycap to 2d. i actually have to think hard and try to win.
i been to 5d and didnt like it because i can not win.
although i want to be 5d i know i dont belong there yet.
but i am thinking if i keep try i will improve eventually.
one day i will feel comfortable playing as 5d so i am not super obsessed to be 5d yet.
Author:  Bantari [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Chew Terr wrote:
I've heard you say that before, and always been jealous of the worry-free state you exist in. Any suggestions for getting there?


Sure.
Think of yourself as 'weak', that should do it.
Rank obsession has its roots in lack of humility - you supplement your value as a player by the number by your name.
As long as you think of rank ONLY as a tool to find matched games and set handicaps, you'll be fine.

Even thinking of rank as progress indicator will get you to care about it too much.

PS.
I noticed people who care about rank too much often also tend to glorify strong(er) players and look down upon weak(er) ones. Not always, though.
Author:  Li Kao [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
When your skill improves the rank follows. You need to get to the mindstate of improving your skill and view rank just as a rough indication of that skill but not as the skill itself.
Rank is just a symptom of skill.
Author:  Marcus [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Unfortunately, I suffer from some of the same rank obsession that Kirby does. I really like seeing my rank improve, and it can feel frustrating when I start dropping over and over again.

What I found, though, is that I can usually snap out of it by finding a DDK and teaching them. I then watch them progress up the ranks. I feel the same sense of accomplishment when a student of mine goes up in rank as I do when I go up in rank as well.

An added benefit is that I improve on my own basics every time I teach them, and there's the added bonus of feeling great when a student comes back for more teaching because they were happy with what you taught them before.

Don't get me wrong, teaching well is a difficult skill, too. Not only that, but different styles of teaching work for different students, so you might need to try teaching three or four different students before you find one who benefits from your own teaching style.

I think it's well worth it, though, to help spread the game I love.
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Bantari wrote:
...
Rank obsession has its roots in lack of humility - you supplement your value as a player by the number by your name.
...


Is this not natural? How does one value their play if they do not win? When I study go problems or read information on strategy, the objective is to train myself to play well, and in turn, to win. If I lose games, especially when I don't feel that I should have, it seems that my study and purpose has been ineffective.

How can I have value as a player without winning? If I lose a game, the outcome is the same as if I had never even studied before.
Author:  dfan [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
One thing that can work well is to look at a game of someone, say, 5 stones weaker than you. Looking at them flail around will help you be proud of how strong you are, rather than resent how much stronger you could be.
Author:  Bantari [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Kirby wrote:
Bantari wrote:
...
Rank obsession has its roots in lack of humility - you supplement your value as a player by the number by your name.
...


Is this not natural? How does one value their play if they do not win?


Umm... by the fun you have playing?
What you say suggests that for you do not value a game unless you win. This attitude might be the root of your problem.

And yes, it is 'natural'... which is why it is so widespread.
But it does not mean it is also 'good'.

Kirby wrote:
When I study go problems or read information on strategy, the objective is to train myself to play well, and in turn, to win. If I lose games, especially when I don't feel that I should have, it seems that my study and purpose has been ineffective.

How can I have value as a player without winning? If I lose a game, the outcome is the same as if I had never even studied before.


Lol.
Recently I commented on a post being the wisest thing I have seen on this forum.
What you write above is most likely the opposite. ;)

I am not sure I know how to even start addressing it.
So I am putting down my guns and say: I Resign, have it your way!
Whatever rocks your boat, friend. ;)

PS. Just voicing my personal opinion, no offense intended.
Author:  topazg [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Kirby wrote:
Is this not natural? How does one value their play if they do not win? When I study go problems or read information on strategy, the objective is to train myself to play well, and in turn, to win. If I lose games, especially when I don't feel that I should have, it seems that my study and purpose has been ineffective.


Train yourself to know more instead of play well. In my eyes, the goal of Go is to understanding Go, not to outperform others at it. The games are merely a way of assessing my understanding - and if I understand what I did wrong when I lose, then I am happy.

Kirby wrote:
How can I have value as a player without winning? If I lose a game, the outcome is the same as if I had never even studied before.


You have value as a student of Go itself, not as a player in competition with others. The latter should be a fun way of assessing how far you have come in your understanding, but is a sideshow to the main event, which is the understanding itself - shape, tesuji, sabaki, whatever floats your boat!
Author:  CarlJung [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Kirby wrote:
Bantari wrote:
...
Rank obsession has its roots in lack of humility - you supplement your value as a player by the number by your name.
...


Is this not natural? How does one value their play if they do not win? When I study go problems or read information on strategy, the objective is to train myself to play well, and in turn, to win. If I lose games, especially when I don't feel that I should have, it seems that my study and purpose has been ineffective.

How can I have value as a player without winning? If I lose a game, the outcome is the same as if I had never even studied before.


It seems you don't like playing go. I'm not trying to be witty or anything here. But your thinking seems geared towards winning only, and leaves no room for simply enjoying playing and studying for it's own sake. There are those who enjoy that.

Once you get stronger, you are punished by being matched with stronger opponents. So you end up with ~50% win/lose ratio anyway. Where's the value in that?
Author:  kokomi [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
only play people who's much stronger or much weaker than you are.
Author:  Loons [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
I had a conversation with Shygost a while ago that I found very inspirational. The gist of it was that he felt I should stop playing many moves I did, even though to varying degrees they "worked for me" and start trying to play moves that were (so far as I can understand) conceptually correct and in good style. He also suggested that this would likely make me lose more games at first.

Anyway, in my opinion, to have lost a hard-fought battle in good style against admirable enemy tactics is as wonderful a thing as winning it; moreso than a cheap win. The only painful losses are the blatant and foolish ones, in my humble opinion.
Author:  SpongeBob [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Once again I would like to articulate a different opinion :D

I do not see the 'rank obsession' as a negative thing. Besides the fun that playing Go is, the other big motivator is improving one's rank. So, where's the problem?

O.k., if you say you 'worry' about your rank, then there might be a problem. It indicates that you are not content with your rank and you feel that you MUST get your rank up. But - there is no MUST. If you like spending your time with Go, fine. Continue to do so and probably your rank will show your progress.

For me, if I would feel that I MUST get my rank up but it DOES NOT get up, there would be only two options, I guess:
- try harder
- stop playing Go

I am KGS 3 kyu and already improvement is slow, due to the limited amount of time I can put into Go. However, I already feel that my current rank is an achievement, so I am in no hurry.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
Unlike some other people on here, I play Go for the sake of winning, not for some inner discovery or anything like that. I simply like beating others. As such, I do care about my ranking, and I don't want to stop caring. As I get stronger, there are more and more people that I can win against in even games and less and less who can beat me in an even game. Sure, I may only win ~50% of my games, but I know that I can win against more and more of the Go playing population the stronger I get.

As for your point, Kirby, about losing making all your studying in vain, I can not agree with that at all. Just because you lose one game doesn't mean you have lost all the strength you acquired through studying. You are still stronger as a result of your studying. For me personally, I am not even bothered by a loss all that much if I learn something in the process, because then that loss has made me stronger, and in the long run I will be able to beat more people as a result.
Author:  MountainGo [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you stop thinking about rank?
When I get too sucked into a game and start getting nervous, I take a step back and look at it as though it is someone else's game. I love watching a good go game, with all its push and pull and interesting ideas. So I start "spectating" my own game, enjoying the question-and-answer dynamic and smiling whenever a bold move or crushing tesuji is played, no matter by me or by my opponent. So I get to have all the fun of watching a game, and at the same time I get to interact with it and control it. So when I think to myself, "I wonder what would happen if Black played there," if I'm Black, I get to play it and find out. At the end, if you understood everything that went on and why the winner won, then it should be an enjoyable game. And if you don't understand, then that's what studying is for.
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