Life In 19x19 :: Respecting your opponent?

I think it's fine to judge your opponent by their moves.
What other evidence do you own then?

Cassandra wrote:

I think it's fine to judge your opponent by their moves.
What other evidence do you own then?

Well, in my experience, the judgment can still be problematic, since the opponent may improve their play later in the game. Let's say your rank is 3d, and your opponent plays a 5k opening. If you proceed to the middle game and don't read deeply, because you expect to be playing against a 5k middle game.... It's problematic, isn't it?

Mostly players, except for the very strong, are not uniformly equal in ability through all the phases. It is a mistake to judge them on their opening because that is generally the weakest part of the game for amateurs in my experience. A 5k opening may be matched by 1k middle game and 2d endgame. That would mean their opening could be several stones below their overall level.

Sometimes, I feel myself getting trapped into the mindset of my opponent.

For example, when I play someone random on the Internet for the first time, I'm strongly affected by how they play in the opening. If my opponent plays in a way that I think is wrong, I feel myself start to judge the opponent. This judgment continues throughout the game. In such cases, my assessment from the start of the game is, "this guy is weaker than me". This is problematic, because as the game continues, I feel inclined to play moves based on this judgment. I will sometimes overplay, because I think to myself, "Well, this is wrong. But it's right against this guy - I mean, look how he played in the opening".

I feel this is partially due to my own arrogance, and partially due to a lack of respect for my opponent.

Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes?

DrStraw wrote:

I guess the takeaway is to remain vigilant throughout the entire game. It may seem like you're winning, but that could go away at any time.

Thanks.

The game's not over till the fat lady sings

The game is not over until you go home.

Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes?

If you win the opening, what's the point of overplaying later? To win by 30 points instead of 10?

Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes?

I feel this is partially due to my own arrogance, and partially due to a lack of respect for my opponent.

Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes?

Author:	Kirby [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:23 am ]
Post subject:	Respecting your opponent?
Sometimes, I feel myself getting trapped into the mindset of my opponent. For example, when I play someone random on the Internet for the first time, I'm strongly affected by how they play in the opening. If my opponent plays in a way that I think is wrong, I feel myself start to judge the opponent. This judgment continues throughout the game. In such cases, my assessment from the start of the game is, "this guy is weaker than me". This is problematic, because as the game continues, I feel inclined to play moves based on this judgment. I will sometimes overplay, because I think to myself, "Well, this is wrong. But it's right against this guy - I mean, look how he played in the opening". I feel this is partially due to my own arrogance, and partially due to a lack of respect for my opponent. Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes?

Author:	Cassandra [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
I think it's fine to judge your opponent by their moves. What other evidence do you own then? I would consider the behaviour that you mentioned to be dis-respectful, if you did so -- let's say -- in a real game tournament against an opponent, whose "official" rank was some stones weaker than your's. In this case, you would base your play on a non-game related fact that you cannot prove beforehand, and which might bedazzle your mind only. A similar situation would arise, if you were matched against a player, who said from himself to be some stones stronger than you. It would be also dis-respectful to not play your best Go, but to think something like "Why should I make an effort, it is useless anyway." Your opponent might be a white-haired senior, whose "real" strength is far below his peak.

Author:	Kirby [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Cassandra wrote: I think it's fine to judge your opponent by their moves. What other evidence do you own then? Well, in my experience, the judgment can still be problematic, since the opponent may improve their play later in the game. Let's say your rank is 3d, and your opponent plays a 5k opening. If you proceed to the middle game and don't read deeply, because you expect to be playing against a 5k middle game.... It's problematic, isn't it?

Author:	DrStraw [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Kirby wrote: Cassandra wrote: I think it's fine to judge your opponent by their moves. What other evidence do you own then? Well, in my experience, the judgment can still be problematic, since the opponent may improve their play later in the game. Let's say your rank is 3d, and your opponent plays a 5k opening. If you proceed to the middle game and don't read deeply, because you expect to be playing against a 5k middle game.... It's problematic, isn't it? Mostly players, except for the very strong, are not uniformly equal in ability through all the phases. It is a mistake to judge them on their opening because that is generally the weakest part of the game for amateurs in my experience. A 5k opening may be matched by 1k middle game and 2d endgame. That would mean their opening could be several stones below their overall level.

Author:	Kirby [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
DrStraw wrote: Mostly players, except for the very strong, are not uniformly equal in ability through all the phases. It is a mistake to judge them on their opening because that is generally the weakest part of the game for amateurs in my experience. A 5k opening may be matched by 1k middle game and 2d endgame. That would mean their opening could be several stones below their overall level. I guess the takeaway is to remain vigilant throughout the entire game. It may seem like you're winning, but that could go away at any time. Thanks.

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Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Kirby wrote: Sometimes, I feel myself getting trapped into the mindset of my opponent. For example, when I play someone random on the Internet for the first time, I'm strongly affected by how they play in the opening. If my opponent plays in a way that I think is wrong, I feel myself start to judge the opponent. This judgment continues throughout the game. In such cases, my assessment from the start of the game is, "this guy is weaker than me". This is problematic, because as the game continues, I feel inclined to play moves based on this judgment. I will sometimes overplay, because I think to myself, "Well, this is wrong. But it's right against this guy - I mean, look how he played in the opening". I feel this is partially due to my own arrogance, and partially due to a lack of respect for my opponent. Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes? Well, if their rating indicates that the game is a good match, and they play poorly in the opening relative to their rating, then other parts of their game must be good in relation to their rating. Your conclusion is not logical. (OTOH, if you don't know their rating, all bets are off. ) Edit: As DrStraw indicates, there are a lot of good players who suck at the opening. May I add, many of them are proud of that fact. E. g., the guys who say or think, "You make pretty moves. Now I kill you."

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Kirby wrote: DrStraw wrote: Mostly players, except for the very strong, are not uniformly equal in ability through all the phases. It is a mistake to judge them on their opening because that is generally the weakest part of the game for amateurs in my experience. A 5k opening may be matched by 1k middle game and 2d endgame. That would mean their opening could be several stones below their overall level. I guess the takeaway is to remain vigilant throughout the entire game. It may seem like you're winning, but that could go away at any time. Thanks. As the go proverb says Quote: The game's not over till the fat lady sings Actually, the proverb is more like this: Quote: The game is not over until you go home. Literally, the last part is "until you put your shoes on", i. e., when you leave.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Respect for your opponent is part of what is going on, but this also illustrates the importance of playing up to yourself. Respect yourself and your own abilities.

Author:	Abyssinica [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Kirby wrote: Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes? Play OTB or know them more personally rather than having them as another faceless random.

Author:	Shaddy [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
If you win the opening, what's the point of overplaying later? To win by 30 points instead of 10?

Author:	oren [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Shaddy wrote: If you win the opening, what's the point of overplaying later? To win by 30 points instead of 10? Sometimes I get in the habit of just trying to win faster, since I don't have a lot of time.

Author:	CaiGengYang [ Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Kirby wrote: Sometimes, I feel myself getting trapped into the mindset of my opponent. For example, when I play someone random on the Internet for the first time, I'm strongly affected by how they play in the opening. If my opponent plays in a way that I think is wrong, I feel myself start to judge the opponent. This judgment continues throughout the game. In such cases, my assessment from the start of the game is, "this guy is weaker than me". This is problematic, because as the game continues, I feel inclined to play moves based on this judgment. I will sometimes overplay, because I think to myself, "Well, this is wrong. But it's right against this guy - I mean, look how he played in the opening". I feel this is partially due to my own arrogance, and partially due to a lack of respect for my opponent. Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes? No particular tips, just play your game and make sure you don't make any negative remarks even at your opponents. If they ask for help or advise, give it to them politely ...

Author:	tapir [ Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Kirby wrote: Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes? If I sense a "lack of respect", I tend to stay in games I would otherwise happily resign, since it often is a signal that a chance to turn the game around might come up later. If you want me to resign early stay firm, solid, confident (and ahead).

Author:	Bantari [ Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Used to have the same feelings. Still do, actually. Below is some of my ideas about how I personally try to handle it. Kirby wrote: I feel this is partially due to my own arrogance, and partially due to a lack of respect for my opponent. Bingo! I always tell myself that when somebody has a rank, they have the rank for a reason. If they play obviously weak fuseki, then I should really look out for their fighting skills, or their excellent endgame, or whatever. I keep telling myself that this will most likely be a tough games, which I will have to fight with my back to the wall most of the time. This often makes me overly cautious and looking out for nasty surprises. Of course, there are always overrated players - but then you lose nothing by being cautious. Quote: Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes? I think it comes with experience and a little self-discipline. I have played plenty of games where the opponent was (or seemed) weeker than me in fuseki but then clobbered me in fighting. And vice versa. So, as you play more games like that, you will realize that such judgements are not correct. In general, eavry equaly rated person you play will be weaker than you in some areas and stronger in others - unless we assume that all 1d players have exactly the same skills. So misjudgements like that are common, I think. One trick that helped me was to always remember to be ready to amend your judgement. When I play somebody who plays bad fuseki, for example, I too have such feelings as you describe. But then I am always on a lookout for the other shoe to drop - for good moves, maybe better moves that I would make, in other stages of the game. This can always change my feelings and my evaluation. And I keep reminding myself to play the position, not the player - although once I know the player well, I have more success when playing the player rather than the position. This is where self-discipline comes in, I think. PS> I wonder if what you say also goes in reverse for you. I.e. when you face somebody who aparently plays better fuseki than you, are you overly respectful, in awe? And does this then affect your further game? Or is this one-way only? I am asking because for me it also was an issue I needed to overcome. And sometimes still is. Even more so than the lack of respect.

Author:	Jhyn [ Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
I think your title is a bit misleading as it seems your problem is not so much about disrespecting than underestimating your opponent. I am not sure I have any "tips", but here are some thoughts on the matter. When learning e.g. good shape or good joseki, we also learn by contrast bad shape or bad joseki. This makes us stronger in two ways: we know play good moves, and we can see our opponent's bad moves and hopefully punish them. The latter is well known to produce a fair share of overplays. This is in my opinion quite natural: we have been taught what is good and what is bad, so we feel entitled to a good result when the opponent misstep. This is true especially for a topic such as shape where most of our knowledge is in the form of a "feeling" or an "intuition", with the best punishing sequence for a bad shape (if it even exists) being highly dependent on the context, so hard to teach. The feeling we have when an opponent made a (in our opinion) bad shape move, this feeling that there is a weakness and that we should be able to "leap on the prey", is the exact same feeling that we use to decide if our own move is bad shape or not. I wouldn't strive to get rid of the reaction altogether because being apathetic to your opponent's move is not the way I'd want to play the game. It's more about taking the time to notice the trap before leaping, so to speak. Of course if a prey got caught 5 times already, or if there is a big "28k" written on its back, you will obviously be less vigilant. Is there a way around it, except the usual "stay focused" and "keep a sense of perspective" advice? I've not found one yet.

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Author:	Solomon [ Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Kirby wrote: Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes? Imagine your opponent is actually Cho Chikun, but really drunk.

Author:	bayu [ Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Kirby wrote: Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes? I don't think that disrespect is the right word. You're just playing with fire. Did you never lose a game that you played that way? Would have taught me a lesson. Your opponent probably doesn't feel disrespected but merely tested. And if he fails to answer your moves properly he has some great studying material. Happened to me once: a teacher (former insei, way above my head) played inside my corner and I knew that he won't be able to live (I read it in a book), but of course I turned it into a ko. Won't happen again As for maintaining respect, as you call it, positional judgement should be able to remedy it. Which in turn means: don't rush. Hands off the bowls/mouse etc.

Author:	often [ Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
A good move does well against any opponent no matter what. A move that might work against your opponent because of his tendencies depends on too much. Play the good move.

Author:	daal [ Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Respecting your opponent?
Kirby wrote: Sometimes, I feel myself getting trapped into the mindset of my opponent. For example, when I play someone random on the Internet for the first time, I'm strongly affected by how they play in the opening. If my opponent plays in a way that I think is wrong, I feel myself start to judge the opponent. This judgment continues throughout the game. In such cases, my assessment from the start of the game is, "this guy is weaker than me". This is problematic, because as the game continues, I feel inclined to play moves based on this judgment. I will sometimes overplay, because I think to myself, "Well, this is wrong. But it's right against this guy - I mean, look how he played in the opening". I feel this is partially due to my own arrogance, and partially due to a lack of respect for my opponent. Any tips for maintaining respect for your opponent - throughout the entire game, even when they make mistakes? Go clearly has a psychological element, and being able to read your opponent's mental state can give you an advantage. Perhaps it is worth reminding yourself that wounded animals are particularly dangerous. I think it is perfectly natural to judge your opponents based on how they play, but the probability that you are missing part of the picture and judging erroneously is quite high. Someone can make bad moves for any number of reasons (phone call, playing while drunk, experimenting with new ideas etc., so yes, losing respect for them is arrogant. Your concern about the matter seems to stem from the fact that losing respect increases the likelihood of losing. Isn't that enough motivation for you?