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Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
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Author:  Anzu [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
An old Korean man who lives in my neighbourhood told me sometime recently that where he comes from, tengen opening is considered rude. He told me, if you don't want to offend your partner, don't play it!
Author:  DrStraw [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
I agree.
Author:  Celebrir [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
DrStraw wrote:
I agree.

Would be intresting to know why you think that? I agree that it feels weird to play against a tengen opening, but if my opponent believes that this is his best move, I'm not offended by it
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Anzu,

In the olden days, opening on a corner star point (4-4) was considered a no-no.
Maybe also for the 3-3. And the tengen.

Of course Go Seigen opened at the tengen, 4-4, and 3-3; and it made headline news back in the day.

With the computer getting closer and closer to pro level,
we'll see very exciting new ideas (just like in the chess and xiangqi circles).
Who knows -- maybe some day they'll prove that :b1: at tengen is the only move, and B wins. :)

I would consider your opponent: if he's an old buddy, or a club member you play regularly,
then it should be OK to experiment any way you feel like it.

But, if you feel it may cause some disturbance
in the Force
then, perhaps give it a second thought. :)
Author:  Solomon [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
Maybe it's because he believes tengen is inferior to corner first as first move in a game, and by you playing there first you are implying to this person that you don't need to play the best move against him in order to win. This is why I don't think it matters whether it is tengen or a 6-6 or a 2-2; if it's not a 3-4, 4-4, 3-3, 5-4, or 5-3, the *optimal* first moves played by the majority of professionals, it is considered disrespect.

Not saying I agree with the old Korean neighbor, but I am trying to put myself in his mindset to see where he's coming from and this is the best explanation I can come up with. If you have time, you should have a nice chat with this person on why he feels it is considered disrespectful. Personally, I think things like playing out until scoring a game with 20+ point difference, or jet-skiing stones across the board before placing it on the intersection are far more disrespectful than tengen first.
Author:  wineandgolover [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
I agree with Solomon's (and other's) explanation as to why people get offended, but strongly believe they are silly for this reaction.

Pros play unusual opening moves in real league games, so they can't be too suboptimal or insulting.

I, for one, get a little uptight when my opponents do it, because it presents a different kind of challenge. But win or lose, these games tend to be amongst the most memorable.

I suspect those who get offended would rather lose in a traditional fashion than risk losing in an unusual way, which might make them feel silly.
Author:  Shenoute [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
Reminds me of how dame are not considered part of the game in Japan, meaning that you should not take advantage of any shortage of liberties that may arise from playing a dame.

I remember reading (in a Go World?) that this attitude was less prevalent now in professional games, due to one or a few incident(s) were a player took advantage of a damezumari claiming that he had not agreed upon the game being finished (if I recall correctly).

All these attitudes, curtailing the freedom offered by the board to the benefit of "tradition"/"politeness", do not seem to me to be beneficial for the game of for the players.
Author:  Mike Novack [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:

With the computer getting closer and closer to pro level,
we'll see very exciting new ideas (just like in the chess and xiangqi circles).
Who knows -- maybe some day they'll prove that :b1: at tengen is the only move, and B wins. :)



There is a good reason, and argument based on symmetry, to believe that tengen might be the best initial move. It is the only move that does not have symmetrical equivalents. In other words, if tengen isn;t the best move, then there is no UNIQUE best move. In other words, if there is a UNIQUE best first move, that move must be tengen (all other choices belong to sets of either 4 or 8 equivalent moves)
Author:  Dontbtme [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
I, for one, won't be pissed if my opponent plays tengen against me: I might even be at a loss as to how to play properly against it. On the other hand, I WOULD be pissed if my opponent had a problem with me playing tengen against him, and would find HIM disrespectful towards me. :grumpy:
That being said, I would totally be pissed if my opponent played his first move at the 1-1 point (unless he's a total beginner, obviously :)), because then I would know FOR SURE that he's messing with me :rambo: ... or that he misclicked! :D
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
I'm playing a game right now on DGS where my opponent's first move as white was at tengen. It was in reply to my first move at the 10-11 point. :)
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
It is disrespectful to tell the opponent that his first move were disrecpectful. It is respectful to play and provide empirical evidence on the quality of a first move.

A few usually Japanese online opponents refused to play and resigned / escaped on move 2 when I opened with the 9-7. Their explanation, however, was not about politeness but about their preference for traditional openings and refusal to play against non-standard openings. Why play if you want to dictate the opponent's moves?
Author:  Knotwilg [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
It happens in all disciplines. I no longer count the times that a fellow player is angry for losing against an opponent who plays "lousy table tennis". In tennis, the crowd starts boo-ing when a player makes a surprise serve from below.

One day an opponent of ours found out that my club mate missed almost every smash. In the decisive set he started lobbing every ball. My club mate lost and thought the behavior of the opponent was disrespectful. I thought it was tactically smart (but indeed, it looked painfully silly).
Author:  OtakuViking [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
I don't think you should listen to him. Tengen, or any other move, isn't disrespectful unless you play it in an impudent way. Do your best to win and don't underestimate your opponent. Don't disrespect him by dismissing his moves as inconsequential. Don't think you don't need to read things out, especially in a fight. I think a flippant attitude is more disrespectful than any move you can play. That's all. Other than that, just do your best to win and that's the end of it. You don't need to follow tradition and open in the upper right corner if you don't want to, although I would recommend it unless you're set on tengen.


Also, shusaku played the 4-4 point as white and several other edo go players did aswell. Shuei used it often and made it part of his opening in late life. There's a particular pattern with white 4-4 and black choosing high enclosure that appears alot in Shuei's games. So playing the 4-4, for example, as a non-standard move in the edo period, was NOT considered disrespectful by Shusaku and Ota Yuzo for example.

Non-standard moves are NOT disrespectful. Check the example game below.




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2000-03-19.sgf [1.21 KiB]
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Author:  mhlepore [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
Yilun Yang said he could be very comfortable playing tengen as black against another pro. His rationale is that there are many josekis that involve ladders, and the tengen serves as a ladder breaker from all corners. Seen thru the eyes of Mr. Yang, careful joseki choices would be required to effectively make use of the tengen stone.
Author:  Anzu [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
Solomon wrote:
If you have time, you should have a nice chat with this person on why he feels it is considered disrespectful.


He told me, "you are not a professional player! Playing tengen is rude, because you won't know what to do with it."

He also said, "I am 5dan, but I have no clue how to continue from a tengen opening, my head would hurt. You are only a weak player, don't be rude by playing tengen."
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
Anzu wrote:
Solomon wrote:
If you have time, you should have a nice chat with this person on why he feels it is considered disrespectful.


He told me, "you are not a professional player! Playing tengen is rude, because you won't know what to do with it."

He also said, "I am 5dan, but I have no clue how to continue from a tengen opening, my head would hurt. You are only a weak player, don't be rude by playing tengen."

Tells you not to be disrespectful playing tengen by being disrespectful of your playing level, got it.
Author:  ez4u [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
Solomon wrote:
Anzu wrote:
Solomon wrote:
If you have time, you should have a nice chat with this person on why he feels it is considered disrespectful.


He told me, "you are not a professional player! Playing tengen is rude, because you won't know what to do with it."

He also said, "I am 5dan, but I have no clue how to continue from a tengen opening, my head would hurt. You are only a weak player, don't be rude by playing tengen."

Tells you not to be disrespectful playing tengen by being disrespectful of your playing level, got it.

Just quietly smile at the idea that a 5d amateur knows how to continue from traditional openings. The only reason his head does not hurt then is because he plays traditional without really thinking, like the rest of us. :)
Author:  Celebrir [ Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
Anzu wrote:
Solomon wrote:
If you have time, you should have a nice chat with this person on why he feels it is considered disrespectful.


He told me, "you are not a professional player! Playing tengen is rude, because you won't know what to do with it."

He also said, "I am 5dan, but I have no clue how to continue from a tengen opening, my head would hurt. You are only a weak player, don't be rude by playing tengen."

This sounds really weird because a "weak" player doesn't know how to continue from a traditional opening as well (no harm intended, I include myself). It is as if he tells all "weak" players to never start a fight because they wouldn't know how to finish it correctly. Besides I believe his head only hurts more because he is not used to it. So is it also disrespectful to play a joseki he doesn't know?
Go is a game of skill, and it is your skill if you understand something better than your opponent.
Author:  tapir [ Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
What I find disrespectful is fancy pants 2-2 openings telling me "look I prepared a trick move for you", but then this is how the trick move works by provoking a local answer.
Author:  wineandgolover [ Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Korean man told me that tengen opening is disrespectful
mhlepore wrote:
Yilun Yang said he could be very comfortable playing tengen as black against another pro. His rationale is that there are many josekis that involve ladders, and the tengen serves as a ladder breaker from all corners. Seen thru the eyes of Mr. Yang, careful joseki choices would be required to effectively make use of the tengen stone.

Sensei Yang requested that I play a tengen combined with 3-5 opening when I was around 5 kyu. He felt that my go was too risk averse, and thought this would be a good way to force me to fight. I got my butt kicked for a long time, but it did help change the way I see the board. He's a smart man.
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