Life In 19x19
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/

Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13846		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  handa711 [ Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
Seriously, is it that hard to not require this horrible technology?
Author:  oren [ Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
handa711 wrote:
Seriously, is it that hard to not require this horrible technology?


Tygem, IGS, wbaduk...

I don't think it's that horrible though.
Author:  Bonobo [ Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
• Dragon Go Server (DGS) dragongoserver.net (correspondence games only)
• Online Go Server (OGS) online-go.com (live & correspondence games, server of my choice)
Author:  yoyoma [ Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
I guess you're talking about KGS. If you use Chrome as your browser you can use this:

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=13297
Author:  Charlie [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
If you want to use the official Java client for KGS, you can also run it under Zulu which is based on OpenJDK and can be "installed" by simply extracting a zip-file so it won't pollute your system with automatic updaters, browser toolbars, adware or other rubbish: https://probabilism.wordpress.com/2016/ ... al-damage/
Author:  oren [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
The Windows and Mac packages are already packaged to not need any special Java installs. The package just puts the JRE with the executable.
Author:  longshanks [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
oren wrote:
handa711 wrote:
Seriously, is it that hard to not require this horrible technology?


Tygem, IGS, wbaduk...

I don't think it's that horrible though.


It's a massive attack surface so unless you isolate it in someway (Charlie's suggestion is good) it's a bit of a headache.

A list of the Java vulnerabilities this year.
https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-93/product_id-19117/Oracle-JRE.html

Also KGS use an invalid SSL certificate (still, even though in 2016 you can get them for free) and you also need to whitelist IIRC even then.

Besides this, Apple have pretty much made it so that each version of Mac OS X KGS breaks without some manual work.

So yeah. It's horrible.
Author:  Joelnelsonb [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
The only place I ever play is OGS at online-go.com. its a great server that requires nothing like that.
Author:  Stefany93 [ Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
handa711 wrote:
Seriously, is it that hard to not require this horrible technology?


What's wrong with Java? Why would you care about the technology as long as the product works?
Author:  Drew [ Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
Stefany93 wrote:

What's wrong with Java?


Here's a good place to start if you're curious.
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
Drew, please don't use an obfuscated url so I know where I would go if I click that link. Why do you want to use a short url if space is not limited (and you've given a long link text) and people aren't going to be typing it into their device from a poster?
Author:  DrStraw [ Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
Drew wrote:
Stefany93 wrote:

What's wrong with Java?


Here's a good place to start if you're curious.


Link please.
Author:  Drew [ Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
Drew wrote:
Stefany93 wrote:
What's wrong with Java?

Here's a good place to start if you're curious.

Uberdude wrote:
Drew, please don't use an obfuscated url so I know where I would go if I click that link. Why do you want to use a short url if space is not limited (and you've given a long link text) and people aren't going to be typing it into their device from a poster?

DrStraw wrote:
Link please.

It was a joke, linking back to this: https://www.google.com/#q=what%27s+wrong+with+java
Author:  Charlie [ Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
"Let Me Google That For You" is a very obnoxious way to answer a question. It isn't a joke and it isn't funny - it's arrogant and lazy and shows that you disdain to answer the question from your own perspective. That last point is a very good reason to simply hold your peace.

As a programmer, I'll step in and answer the original question from MY perspective: there's nothing truly wrong with Java as a language itself. All programming languages have their pros and cons and Java is no different - it is a mature, well thought out Object Oriented programming language. The problems start when you look at the way Java is realised.

  • Java programmes require you to install a runtime environment in order to run them. This runtime environment is bundled with stuff that "phones home", automatic update services and, in the past, with blatant malware in the form of the Ask Toolbar.
  • Java's RE is also bundled with a browser plugin that is installed in nearly all Web Browser software.
  • Java's RE and associated Browser plugin are flawed - having them installed on your system and in your browser opens you up to malicious attacks because of flaws in the implementation. Oracle's ones are closed-source so these flaws can not be fixed or easily discovered by anyone but Oracle.
  • Java's license terms are obscure and incredibly vague, filled with traps that lawyers can exploit to extort money from successful users (programmers) of Java whenever Larry wants a new boat.
  • Java's developer tools and artefacts are freely distributed but that distribution also includes several things that are not free to use. No barriers present you from using them and you'll get away with it until the lawyers take another turn, by which time you might have inadvertently and unknowingly sold your soul to Oracle.
Author:  Drew [ Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
Well said.
Author:  oren [ Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
Charlie wrote:
Java programmes require you to install a runtime environment in order to run them. This runtime environment is bundled with stuff that "phones home", automatic update services and, in the past, with blatant malware in the form of the Ask Toolbar.


There is a windows and mac package that handle just having a runtime environment for cgoban. There's nothing extra to install.
Author:  longshanks [ Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
oren wrote:
Charlie wrote:
Java programmes require you to install a runtime environment in order to run them. This runtime environment is bundled with stuff that "phones home", automatic update services and, in the past, with blatant malware in the form of the Ask Toolbar.


There is a windows and mac package that handle just having a runtime environment for cgoban. There's nothing extra to install.


Can you post the link to this please?
Author:  Bonobo [ Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
longshanks wrote:
oren wrote:
There is a windows and mac package that handle just having a runtime environment for cgoban. There's nothing extra to install.

Can you post the link to this please?

I for one don't know of a Mac KGS package that includes Java <shrug> but here are the official KGS downloads: http://www.gokgs.com/ (.exe for Windows, .dmg file for Mac, and the raw Java file).

(I prefer OGS which I can just load in a browser tab, though sometimes I visit KGS for fond memories and for watching DeepZen if it plays again.)
Author:  longshanks [ Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
Bonobo wrote:
longshanks wrote:
oren wrote:
There is a windows and mac package that handle just having a runtime environment for cgoban. There's nothing extra to install.

Can you post the link to this please?

I for one don't know of a Mac KGS package that includes Java <shrug> but here are the official KGS downloads: http://www.gokgs.com/ (.exe for Windows, .dmg file for Mac, and the raw Java file).

(I prefer OGS which I can just load in a browser tab, though sometimes I visit KGS for fond memories and for watching DeepZen if it plays again.)


And this is the rub:


From https://www.gokgs.com/
"All versions of the KGS client require you to install java first"

Yeah, no thanks!

I used Charlies method. A nice native HTML5 method would be even better. Think I've seen something about here of some Google Chrome add-on. Would be lovely if there were a Firefox version at some point. I don't know if there's any technical reason for why Google was chosen, or if it was just a preference.
Author:  Jujube [ Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is there a Go server that doesn't require Java?
longshanks wrote:
Bonobo wrote:
longshanks wrote:
Can you post the link to this please?

I for one don't know of a Mac KGS package that includes Java <shrug> but here are the official KGS downloads: http://www.gokgs.com/ (.exe for Windows, .dmg file for Mac, and the raw Java file).

(I prefer OGS which I can just load in a browser tab, though sometimes I visit KGS for fond memories and for watching DeepZen if it plays again.)


And this is the rub:


From https://www.gokgs.com/
"All versions of the KGS client require you to install java first"

Yeah, no thanks!

I used Charlies method. A nice native HTML5 method would be even better. Think I've seen something about here of some Google Chrome add-on. Would be lovely if there were a Firefox version at some point. I don't know if there's any technical reason for why Google was chosen, or if it was just a preference.


As far as I was aware KGS have been offering versions for download with their own JRE for around a year now, maybe more. That's why the Mac DMG has grown to 67MB. I think this was done to stop conflicts with different JRE versions. If you download the default download links you should notice the size difference. I'm surprised no one seems to know about this?

As far as the security concerns, I disagree. Java is extremely widely used, which means it gets more press when exploits are found. I don't believe the runtime is less safe per se. There are always going to be exploits (would you argue that languages with manual pointers, manual memory allocation and manual garbage collection are safer)? Admittedly applets are well known for their leaky sandboxing, but Chrome no longer supports them at all, neither does Safari by default, and it's ultimately up to the user whether they go with it on Firefox / IE. And no-one uses applets these days anyway.

Honestly this sort of stuff drives me nuts. It's like saying you don't want to go to the music festival because heaven forbid you might meet a nice community and enjoy yourself, but let's not do it because there will be bacteria around and the ground might get a bit muddy.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/