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What does "natural move" mean?
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Author:  entropi [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  What does "natural move" mean?
Every second or third game commentary identifies some moves as "natural move". While reading a commentary it does not seem very important but I recognized that in fact I don't understand what is meant thereby.

Which one of these (if any) is the meaning of natural move?
a) move that results in a well known shape
b) first instinct (most obvious) move
c) traditional move that was (or would be) played by e.g. shusaku
d) a move without which the previous move(s) lose their meaning
e) richard nixon
Author:  topazg [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
I'm guessing a bit on this, but it normally seems to be a combination of necessity / shape efficiency / consistency etc, so a combination of "a" plus "d" with a bit of urgency handling in there ..
Author:  Solomon [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
It can mean different things based on context imo, but for the most part I'd say a natural move is simply a move that's pleasing to the instincts; e.g: a move that forms a well-known shape can be a natural move.
Author:  gowan [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
I'd say that a natural move is consistent with "go logic". There are some principles, often expressed as proverbs, which define the logic of go. For example, "don't use thickness to make territory". A natural move follows these principles. Moves that are "unnatural" can be effective, so unnatural moves aren't necessarily bad. Takemiya is known for advocating a natural style, see his book This is Go the Natural Way. I'm not sure about the "instinct" definition of natural. The problem is that often weak players' instinctive moves are bad. Takemiya has lately been advocating playing moves that feel good to you. Of course you'll play a lot of bad moves that way but I think the point is that you'll learn by seeing your bad moves result in a loss so eventually they won't feel good to you any more.
Author:  freegame [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
I do not really like the term "natural move" because it is vague.
If I do use in a game commentary that a move should be a "natural move", I mean that the player should have easily seen/found it with it's current knowledge. (the "go logic" gowan described).
Author:  Redbeard [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
entropi wrote:
Which one of these (if any) is the meaning of natural move?
a) move that results in a well known shape
b) first instinct (most obvious) move
c) traditional move that was (or would be) played by e.g. shusaku
d) a move without which the previous move(s) lose their meaning
e) richard nixon

f) the move Takemiya would choose.
(This holds true for Tango dancing as well)
Author:  LovroKlc [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
The move that gives you most pleasure I think.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
Natural move: a move that is obvious to a pro.
Author:  SpongeBob [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
I would say: natural move = instinctive move
Author:  dfan [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
This is sort of the same thing people are saying with "instinctive", but to me a natural move is the one that you want to play before doing any reading; the move that you would play if you only had five seconds to think about it. (It is possible that further reading will either support or contradict that desire.)
Author:  gowan [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
To me "natural" has to have some meaning independent of rank. After all, a move that a 10k player would play "instinctively" or with little or no thought could very well be a bad move. So are you going to qualify "natural" like in "natural for a 12k"?
Author:  entropi [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
gowan wrote:
To me "natural" has to have some meaning independent of rank. After all, a move that a 10k player would play "instinctively" or with little or no thought could very well be a bad move. So are you going to qualify "natural" like in "natural for a 12k"?


In that sense it should mean something more than instinct because instinct is too subjective. Maybe it implies the instinct of a pro... But it may also vary with time. With the development of new joseki a move that was natural 100 years ago may be proven to be a bad move nowadays.

It seems that everybody more or less understands what it means but nobody can define it clearly. Vague term indeed :)
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
Joseki can be full of unnatural moves that happen to work, so far as I understand the term.
Author:  gowan [ Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
hyperpape wrote:
Joseki can be full of unnatural moves that happen to work, so far as I understand the term.


Takemiya considers the "attach-and-block" joseki to be "unnatural, and in particular the creation of the empty triangle with black 3 and 5 is an example of an unnatural joseki moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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$$ . . . . . 5 3 . . |
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Author:  palapiku [ Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
Black 3 at 4 is of course natural?
Author:  Mef [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does "natural move" mean?
When I think about natural moves, one of the first things that come to mind is this page on Sensei's: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BasicInstinct
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