Life In 19x19 :: blood vomiting game

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Author:	thing1 [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:	blood vomiting game
http://senseis.xmp.net/?BloodVomitingGame Uh I want to ask what did it mean that he sacrificed himself for his master? Why did Jowa playing his pupil allow him an excuse to play Jowa and what was the thing with Inseki gaining 8 dan by other means. Like I don't understand how all that works. In chess for example amatuers keep playing other amatuers for the right of playing a grandmaster. Also could someone explain the moves to me? On the first board 6 seems to be a sacrifice that does nothing (after white ataris) Also could someone explain the first two (and I guess the third as well) ghost moves to me?

Author: Dusk Eagle [ Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:29 am ]

Post subject: Re: blood vomiting game

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O X X . X . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O 6 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Wow,

is actually a very elegant move that I never would have thought of. It's important to look at the next diagram on the page to see it's true meaning.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O X X . X . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | 4 O X 1 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white attempts to capture it with :w7:

and

sets up a ko which could rob white of his two eyes on the bottom while simultaneously giving the black corner group two eyes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O X X . X . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | b X O O O 4 . . X . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | 3 O X 1 a 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, if white extends with :w9:

, black's moves force a gigantic ko. Note that if white plays at 'a', black will play at 'b', and it is unclear how white will live if black wins the ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W W . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O B B . B . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . X O O O 4 . . B . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | 3 O X 1 . 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is clearly unplayable, as white gets sealed into a tiny corner and the marked black group gains a ton of strength, which would make it very hard for Jowa to justify trying to save the marked white group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . Q . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O X X . X . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . X O O O 3 . . X . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | 5 O X 1 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, to prevent the diagram two up from here, white takes the key point of :w9:

first. Note that this threatens to capture black's two cutting stones, which is unacceptable for black. So black saves them with :b10:

, which also applies a lot of pressure to the :wt:

stone. However, white has more pressing matters to attend to, and must take :w11:

to live happily in the corner (and prevent black from doing the same). Now, however, black gains a tactical advantage on the outside, as white failed to respond to his contact move at :b10:

. The game shows this advantage being manifest:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm12 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W W . W 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X W . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O X X . X . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . X . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | O O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Notice how weak the white cutting stones feel.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . 7 , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X X . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . O X . . . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . X X O 5 X 4 3 . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O X X . X . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . X . . 8 . . . O . . . | $$ | O O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black is successfully able to capture white's iron pillar on the left side, securing a good amount of profit there. With :b26:

, black continues to put pressure on white.

Anyway, that's my understanding of black's throw in 20 moves ago. Someone else will have to explain the "ghost moves."

Author:	ethanb [ Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: blood vomiting game
My understanding of the first two ghost moves is that it got the white group out into the center in sente. I didn't realize it stopped black from incursion into the corner... and I still don't see it, really (surely a 1-space jump on the first line is ok here?) But I do think there's aji left on the inside (where the first ghost move was played.) Maybe enough to have a magical way for the group inside to live if black tries too hard to connect on the outside. Certainly enough to be scary. I was actually looking at this game a couple of weeks ago - the third ghost move does even more than it seems at first glance. It's really amazing. There's an upward cut that Intetsu plays later that's an astounding tesuji in its own right, but the fight that it looks like it has the potential to start... never materializes, because the third ghost move gave Jowa enough liberties to avoid the issue. But at least Intetsu did get to live in the corner with it. I'm working today, unfortunately, but when I get the chance I'll throw up some diagrams, if somebody else hasn't beaten me to it in the meantime. EDIT: done working, but about to go to sleep. But I wanted to say I don't buy the SL comment "this is Jowa's aggressive style" for making the iron pillar there. It's plain as day that the central white group is too weak - I think he plays this because it's the best way he sees of getting forcing moves to work with it; in the end he gets to take two black stones and connect. But to make that judgment requires REALLY thorough reading, I know my reading isn't good enough to make that call. But I also know Jowa's reading is good enough to see that the two white stones there would have to be sacrificed. So I'd really like to find commentary on this game that shows what options white has here that Jowa discarded. Does defending the center group directly put him behind too much on territory?

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