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For those who don't like tsumego
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Author:  entropi [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  For those who don't like tsumego
I am not one of them. I enjoy tsumego as much as (maybe even more than) playing. What I hate is counting and endgame.

A question to those who don't like tsumego:

Since tsumego is all about reading, if you don't like reading, what do you enjoy about this game? I assume it cannot be counting, but maybe I am thinking too subjectively.

Or maybe you like reading but the missing part of tsumego is the human-interaction which makes you dislike it?

Or is there another explanation of it?

The reason I am asking this question is because during a recent discussion I got really surprised how many players find it boring.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
I'm not much of a fan of tsume-go, though I don't hate them either.

I think that part of the reason is that I like the competitive aspect of real games. I like something to be at stake. With tsume-go, there's no real win/loss, just correct/wrong.

My girlfriend on the other hand dislikes the competitive aspect of playing real games, but loves doing tsume-go, because she loves solving puzzles.
Author:  gowan [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
I don't mind tsumego but I prefer whole-board problems. To me tsumego seems a little like doing exercises in a gym. I prefer hiking in the woods to walking on a treadmill. I recognize that the reading practice from solving tsumego is valuable but my personal preference is thinking about the opening (e.g. joseki choice, direction of play, relative size of big points, overall strategy, balance, etc.) and middle game (thickness vs territory, how to use thickness, reduction vs invasion, multipurpose moves, defense as attack, etc.) I guess I like more strategic issues as opposed to strictly tactical issues. But I appreciate the value of tactical reading and do solve tsumego problems.
Author:  Li Kao [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
I'm usually too lazy to read. So I mainly plain on intuition. What I enjoy most about go is the thrill of the fight. Can I kill? Will he live? Die, die, die!
Author:  hyperpape [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
I'm not sure I dislike tsumego, but I don't particularly enjoy them either. I'd say that 1)it's easier to motivate myself and concentrate during games, 2)you can play from intuition, which is easier and more gratifying in the short run (until you play terribly and kick yourself for not reading), 3)I know I'd be a better go player if I read more, but I find big picture stuff more interesting.
Author:  Phelan [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
Mostly what LiKao and gowan said. If I didn't have to practice my reading and shape recognition, I probably would not do normal tsumego, only direction-of-play and similar problems.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
I like to study Go through (language-)reading more than I like playing. And I like playing more than I like tsumego. But that's not to say I hate tsumego or (move-)reading. I love (move-)reading during a game, and I do tsumego to improve my reading ability. But if given the option, I would rather study, say, Carpenter's Square by reading an article and following along than by just placing the position on the board and trying to figure it out by my brute reading power, which is what a lot of tsumego is.
Author:  Perception [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
I mostly agree with Dusk Eagle. Most of the time tsumego are either boring or frustrating for me. I do it even though I don't enjoy it because it helps me to improve. I enjoy playing just as much as (maybe more than) studying though.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
Actually, it kind of depends whether I like studying or playing Go more. I'd prefer to study than to play online, but playing in person is more enjoyable than both.
Author:  tj86430 [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
hyperpape wrote:
I'm not sure I dislike tsumego, but I don't particularly enjoy them either. I'd say that 1)it's easier to motivate myself and concentrate during games, 2)you can play from intuition, which is easier and more gratifying in the short run (until you play terribly and kick yourself for not reading), 3)I know I'd be a better go player if I read more, but I find big picture stuff more interesting.

+1
Author:  entropi [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
Interesting opinions. In my case, I also see tsumego like puzzles. If I did not know how to play go, I would probably solve sudoku or chess problems instead. But tsumego is much more fun than both :)

Whole board problems like direction of play, defend/attack, joseki selection etc, are also fine but they usually require an overall positional judgement and the answers are mostly too abstract for me.
Author:  topazg [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
entropi wrote:
I am not one of them. I enjoy tsumego as much as (maybe even more than) playing. What I hate is counting and endgame.

A question to those who don't like tsumego:

Since tsumego is all about reading, if you don't like reading, what do you enjoy about this game? I assume it cannot be counting, but maybe I am thinking too subjectively.

Or maybe you like reading but the missing part of tsumego is the human-interaction which makes you dislike it?

Or is there another explanation of it?

The reason I am asking this question is because during a recent discussion I got really surprised how many players find it boring.


I dislike them quite a lot, slightly because I don't enjoy solving generally, but more importantly because I find them contrived. I know that's not fair, because a lot of tsumego are from real games, but without having played the game to that point, I don't have any emotional investment in the final result. I also don't particularly enjoy reading, it's just a necessity of the game, and I don't particularly enjoy counting, but it can be useful to do it.

What I do enjoy, is elegance, shape, and flow. I like direction of play thought processes, I like clever tesujis and things that cause the opponent to have their move turned into something inefficient, and I enjoy the artistry of the stones as they develop. I suppose I treat the game as an expression of personality a bit - you get to see a lot about people by the way they play Go. I suppose I also like most of the virtues that are traditionally associated with the game, and enjoy the social interaction when I get the chance to do so.
Author:  daal [ Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
entropi wrote:
I am not one of them. I enjoy tsumego as much as (maybe even more than) playing. What I hate is counting and endgame.

A question to those who don't like tsumego:

Since tsumego is all about reading, if you don't like reading, what do you enjoy about this game? I assume it cannot be counting, but maybe I am thinking too subjectively.

Or maybe you like reading but the missing part of tsumego is the human-interaction which makes you dislike it?

Or is there another explanation of it?

The reason I am asking this question is because during a recent discussion I got really surprised how many players find it boring.


Well, I don't find tsumego boring, and like others I like it's aspect of playing go without the pressure and excitement. However, What I don't like is how they constantly remind me how bad I am at go's core competence. There are so many different ways to fail at tsumego. Just some of my typical mistakes are: thinking the correct line fails because I mentally lost a liberty somewhere, thinking a wrong line works because I mentally lost a liberty, not considering the correct first move, reading and re-reading the same lines over and over again, rejecting lines because of ghost stones from other lines, etc.

Of course I do tsumego with the hope that these failures will diminish over time, but since that is a slow and arduous process, there is a psychologically negative side effect in my games, which is that under pressure I sometimes assume I won't be able to get the correct answer. While I don't have Hermann's fault of wanting to play a sequence just because I read it, I have an even worse problem, which is that if I actually read a sequence that fails, instead of trying to read another sequence, I will sometimes just plunk a stone elsewhere thinking it can't be as bad as the line I just read.

I'm not good at reading and I'm not good at tsumego, and although I berate myself for not being able to solve some problems, I am nonetheless captivated by the fact that they can be so elusive. In a certain way, doing tsumego is like watching a magic trick. It bothers me that I didn't see the sleight of hand, but I really want to know how it was done.
Author:  entropi [ Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
daal wrote:
...I have an even worse problem, which is that if I actually read a sequence that fails, instead of trying to read another sequence, I will sometimes just plunk a stone elsewhere thinking it can't be as bad as the line I just read.


I have exactly the same problem as you describe, and I was thinking it was only me. (Or let's say I was not thinking at all if others have the same problem or not.)
Just a couple of days ago I discussed this topic with a chess player collegaue.

Among chess players it is apparently quite common to discuss the thinking process. Chess books are usually not only about the board but also about the players mind. And the chess player friend desribed this problem as one of the biggest obstacles for chess players on the way to get strong.

Apparently it is also not so uncommon among go players. There is at least the two of us :)

But how to get rid of it, no idea...
Author:  oso [ Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
Tsumego mentally drains me. Because I'm so obssessive I find that I can't stop playing out the sequences. It's like I pick up the tsumego problem and I end up concentrating so hard that I end up wanting to blow a hole in my head.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
I don't mind doing tsumego, but I enjoy in-game situations more. Since I've been playing from stone one, I generally have better recognition when it comes to the problems that surface. It's easier for my brain to dissect the flow of the stones if I witnessed the play from the beginning, whereas with tsumego you're given a situation and are expected to solve it from there. I don't mind this. I just think it's more natural/easy to spot problems in game than in tsumego.
Author:  MarylandBill [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
As someone who has just started working on learning to really play go, I don't mind problems, In fact I enjoy them quite a bit on sites like goproblems.com. So far, the biggest problem I have with them is that the problems give me a hint at what I should be looking for (a capture, killing a group, staying alive, etc...), when I am actually playing, well, I am still working on knowing what problem to solve with a given move :).

--
Bill
Author:  LordYunzi [ Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: For those who don't like tsumego
Well, I like tsumego, but it would be much more fun if I see (and read) it the right way in game-situations :D
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