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Do you count?
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=358		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Do you count?
I am not asking if you can count a game, I am asking if you do.

As most of you will know, I wrote what has become a very popular set of lessons on how to count. But I almost never count a game. Sure I know how to, and if I think a game is very close I can count it down to the last half point. But these days it all seems like too much effort. I play for fun and just about never think for more than 5 seconds on a more, even on DGS. If my intuition is not enough to win a game then I don't worry myself about it.

Of course, this is one reason I have not improved in twenty years.
Author:  Stable [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
I'm trying to learn at the moment. So I do, but I'm not so sure that I can. :roll:
Author:  Phelan [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
Only 9x9 games so far. In other sizes I mostly estimate visually. I very rarely count on larger boards. :oops:
Author:  kirkmc [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
I do, and I do often. Your lessons got me started, and some other stuff I read about counting convinced me. I count around the middle game, and use my counts to determine whether I should play aggressive or solid from that point on.
Author:  topazg [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
I do, and do often as well. Everytime I don't I hear Kageyama shouting at me :D
Author:  shapenaji [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
In most games I don't. In tournaments I try to, but often get caught up in the play and forget.

I want to do it more, it's a patience issue more than anything else... I usually want to spend my time finding the best moves, not necessarily assessing the state of the game.

I worry about getting too passive though, if I read the game as me ahead by X points, It's sometimes dangerous to say "well, I'm ahead here, so I can play safe"
Author:  mic [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
kirkmc wrote:
I do, and I do often. Your lessons got me started, and some other stuff I read about counting convinced me. I count around the middle game, and use my counts to determine whether I should play aggressive or solid from that point on.

Could you elaborate about the "other stuff"?

Mic
Author:  kirkmc [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
mic wrote:
kirkmc wrote:
I do, and I do often. Your lessons got me started, and some other stuff I read about counting convinced me. I count around the middle game, and use my counts to determine whether I should play aggressive or solid from that point on.

Could you elaborate about the "other stuff"?

Mic


I don't recall where I read other things about counting, but certainly in a couple of books. Topazg says Kageyama, so I probably read it in one of his books.
Author:  daal [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
Stable wrote:
I'm trying to learn at the moment. So I do, but I'm not so sure that I can. :roll:

:mrgreen:

I went through Dr. Straw's counting lessons - http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting - for those who may be interested - when I was a ddk, and found it too difficult to distinguish between probable and possible territory (definite, while easier, often turned out wrong). I've tried to do it while watching other peoples games, but during my own games I've never come close to making an accurate count.

The main reason that I don't count though, is because I don't think I'mgood enough to alter my strategy to suit the situation. Basically, I just try to do my best the whole game.
Author:  Magicwand [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
i only count on close game.
when i am winning by more than 10 pts i can usually feel that i am winning by enough margin so i usually dont count.
Author:  shapenaji [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
daal wrote:
Stable wrote:
I'm trying to learn at the moment. So I do, but I'm not so sure that I can. :roll:

:mrgreen:

I went through Dr. Straw's counting lessons - http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting - for those who may be interested - when I was a ddk, and found it too difficult to distinguish between probable and possible territory (definite, while easier, often turned out wrong). I've tried to do it while watching other peoples games, but during my own games I've never come close to making an accurate count.

The main reason that I don't count though, is because I don't think I'mgood enough to alter my strategy to suit the situation. Basically, I just try to do my best the whole game.


That's a really useful link, I'm going to try some of those counting strategies. Thanks DrStraw for doing this in the first place.
Author:  Andreas [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
I rarely count in casual internet games, I do more often in serious games with longer time limits (german league, I used to in turn based games)
Author:  freegame [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
usually I don't count but make a rough estimate that is usually pretty close.
occasionally when I play a tournament game and I feel it's quite close I count to see if I really need to go all out or if I can play "that extra defensive move just to be sure"
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
shapenaji wrote:
That's a really useful link, I'm going to try some of those counting strategies. Thanks DrStraw for doing this in the first place.


You mean you have only just discovered them! Those were done eight years ago and I haven't even looked as most of them since then.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
I wholeheartedly counted twice in my so far Go-career. Both times, I got way off (one time I even resigned because I think, I got destroyed but could have won).

So, the answer is, since then I didn't counted once. (To answer the indirect question, it seems I can't count anyway : D)
Author:  fwiffo [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
I counted in both games I played last night, but I usually don't. But I have a hard time keeping track of what I counted in my head, because I'm not used to it. So each time I counted I had to start over from the beginning, e.g. "Was the big area on the bottom 35 points or 45 points?" Unfortunately, I lost one of the games because I got time short and felt rushed; the score was close enough that I might have won if I wasn't time pressured.

My estimating is not very good and my counting is not much better, and it's slow. Which is why I'm trying to do it more. :) But at the speed I usually play (automatch medium), it seems like it's only borderline worth it.

The other day I played a game and I thought I was behind by about 10, maybe less, so I figured it was worth playing through endgame. I lost by more than 30 and was embarrassed for not resigning. So I resolved to learn to count to avoid that kind of situation.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
Lately my games tend to hinge on a large group dying, so counting is pretty much impossible until well out of the middle game. But once the status of everything is determined, I count. I've gotten much better and faster, I'm usually within five points. Basically I count so I know if I should resign or not. :) If playing with a clock, I count before going into overtime.
Author:  shapenaji [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
DrStraw wrote:
shapenaji wrote:
That's a really useful link, I'm going to try some of those counting strategies. Thanks DrStraw for doing this in the first place.


You mean you have only just discovered them! Those were done eight years ago and I haven't even looked as most of them since then.


Indeed, crazy it is, but an accurate, quick count of the game is not my strong suit.
I haven't gone through them all yet, and I imagine I do some of the stuff, but having a good method for counting, rather than ("how do I feel like counting this game today") goes a long way toward speeding up and increasing the accuracy of the count.
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
There are, afaik, specifically only 2 instances when I don't count:
1. When I'm in byoyomi; too hard to count in overtime. However, if I'm down by more than 20 it's usually easy enough to tell.
2. When I feel it looks "close enough" and simply try to play the best endgame that I can. Definition of close enough is related to the latter sentence in 1.
Author:  fwiffo [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do you count?
Actually, now that I think about it, counting may have gotten me in trouble in BOTH of my games last night. In the second game, I judged my opponent to be much weaker both because I was able to push him around, but also because I had a count that showed me way ahead. I started getting lazy and let him almost catch up. I ended up killing a big group because he messed up, and still probably would have won by 10 or so even if I hadn't, but I shouldn't have let it get that close.
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