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Etiquette
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3615		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  CSamurai [ Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Etiquette
Stepping on toes is so easy to do.

I went back to the local go club for the first time in years, not because I didn't enjoy going, but with my work schedule, I've been lazy about getting out there on friday nights.

But I went out there, and I told them I was 4-5k, KGS, and one guy looked at me skeptically, and suggested I take black and we played even. After killing a group, he resigned in a rather round about way, but he didnt' seem interested in discussing the game at all (he played a double approach on the upper right after I'd already taken the upper side star point and pincered his approach on the right, I felt this let me get too strong of a wall against the upper side.)

After that, I played a couple more games with a few other people, and at the end of the night played a 3 stone game against a man. When I played a 3.3 invasion off a pincered approach to the upper right 4.4, he played out the standard joseki mistake (the hane) and eventually let me kill both sides of it. After the game, even though he won, I pointed out that that was a fairly common mistake of play, and showed him some sequences that were better. He thanked me and informed me...

"Some people don't like being shown things like this after the game."

....

Is this poor etiquette of me? The only time I went to go club regularly was in SLC, where Anders and the others were always ready to discuss anything they played with you. Sometimes even while they were playing it.

Am I being rude to offer knowledge like this?

Is there a more polite way for me to ask if people want to discuss things than 'Can we talk about this corner?'

I'm a little confused, since, admittedly, my go is mostly online these days, and I don't know, is it poor manners to talk about a game?
Author:  cdybeijing [ Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
I don't think what you did was rude, but I wasn't there and I don't know how you went about offering the advice. This is a situation that is pretty difficult to judge from an online posting, and the overall context of the new guy showing up, beating some people, and offering tips freely is pretty hard to assess. Some chess and go players can be pretty fragile, in my opinion.

In general, if you win a game I think you should politely offer to review, and if your opponent declines you let it be. If you lose a game, as you did in the 3 stone game, I think you are entitled to a review.
Author:  DMXdawg [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
hey don't sweat it! go clubs are for loozers anyways
Author:  Tsuyoku [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
It's a natural thing to do, to talk about the game afterwards.

But if people don't want to learn what their mistakes are, I have no desire to bother trying.

I don't mean to say I enjoy when it turns out I'm repeating a mistake I've been repeating for quite some time, or if I missed how I made a blunder myself, and thought the game was proceeding normally. But I'd rather find out, than continue to forever embarrass myself unknowingly.

I guess some people are so afraid of the confrontation that they're content to remain ignorant about how they never learn.
Author:  Koroviev [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
Sounds fine to me, you were only trying to help.

CSamurai wrote:
When I played a 3.3 invasion off a pincered approach to the upper right 4.4, he played out the standard joseki mistake (the hane) and eventually let me kill both sides of it.


Off topic, but this is something I've been wondering about for a while. Do you mean black 6 below?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Lately I see this move all the time, and I've become convinced it's a mistake (black needs to extend, surely?) So I generally cut (usually after descending or playing the hane exchange at Q18 first) and it leads to a complicated fight...which I usually lose. :shock:

So if this is a mistake, what's the best way to go about taking advantage?
Author:  tj86430 [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
Koroviev wrote:
So if this is a mistake, what's the best way to go about taking advantage?

According to dailyjoseki.com, this seems to be most often played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  daal [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
Koroviev wrote:



Lately I see this move all the time, and I've become convinced it's a mistake (black needs to extend, surely?) So I generally cut (usually after descending or playing the hane exchange at Q18 first) and it leads to a complicated fight...which I usually lose. :shock:

So if this is a mistake, what's the best way to go about taking advantage?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . # O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . # O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Either you capture the squared stones or the triangled stone.
Author:  CSamurai [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
There are two commonly known responses.

One, tj has shown.

The other requires your opponent to play along, but is slightly worse for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 b X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


through white 7, white kills the hane stone, and has strength resonating down a side. Black is cramped, and the approach stone still has aji, so the result is considered not so good for black. If black plays 4 at 7 instead, white may safely cut at B to kill all three stones.

This is actually listed in a how not to do it section of one of the popular joseki dictionaries, (Ishida's maybe? I forget.) and an entire thread was made in GoD about how to better respond than following white down with b2, but I don't recall the final verdict of the thread, as to what the best move is.

Traditionally, I see the following accepted as Joseki,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 0 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . b . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


white 11 at A, black has a honte move at B, depending on how strong he judges his top to be. Black should avoid pushing the one point jump because the cut doesn't work, and it reduces black's liberties, forcing him to play at B or risk an uncomfortable fight.
Author:  Koroviev [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
Great responses, thanks. I'm pretty much doing the same thing, but overcomplicating in the hope of killing everything (plus ca change...)

I will try this out next time. Honestly I think I've seen that hane in 10 out of my last 12 games, very strange.
Author:  Kirby [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
I don't think you were rude, CSamurai. However, each person has their own tastes and preferences. As you get to know the people at your go club a little better, you can find out more about what they like and dislike. You can get to know them better. I'd just keep going to the club and learn along the way what they happen to like and dislike.
Author:  tapir [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Knowing W9 us crucial
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 7 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Anyone eager to "punish" should be able to find this W9. Otherwise you should be ready for bad surprises.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
tj86430 wrote:
Koroviev wrote:
So if this is a mistake, what's the best way to go about taking advantage?

According to dailyjoseki.com, this seems to be most often played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Keep in mind that when pros play the hane, it will not be a mistake to begin with... Also, note that it's quite rare: .4% of the time (10 games out of more than 2000). That implies that it usually is not appropriate. When it is not appropriate, there may very well be a better sequence for white than this one.

My understanding is that the descent (play :w1: at :w3: above) is the "punishment", but black can avoid a disaster simply by connecting. My experience says that players below 5k usually don't know to connect, they usually play :b2: at :w1: above and lose some stones.
Author:  Toge [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
Perhaps the guy got angry over losing and felt you were rubbing in your victory. Some people are difficult like that. I wouldn't consider offering advice rude. Even in online games I would appreciate if my opponent showed me a sequence that gave better result than the one I played. That's one way of learning.
Author:  topazg [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
Also, the descent by White can sometimes be a mistake:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sometimes this position, depending on the right side, can be pretty valuable to Black. In which case the hane, connect and clamp is normal:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This may not look a particularly severe punishment, but in the normal joseki, combined with a later :b6: as below, aiming at the aji of "a", can be very useful. As far as aji goes, it's quite a lot wasted to push here, so Black has suffered from a reasonably large aji-keshi, albeit no more than that:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Chew Terr [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
CSam: Yeah, sometimes it can be hard to take advice well, even with the best of intentions. Maybe just say "Hey, mind looking at a couple things from the game?" so they can say no. You can always mention in advance that if your opponent has time, you'd love to go over the game a little after.
Author:  Horibe [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
topazg wrote:
Also, the descent by White can sometimes be a mistake:



Essentially, the descent by White is only wrong if black blocked on the wrong side in the first place. Assuming black blocked correctly, the descent is rarely, rarely, rarely wrong.
Author:  topazg [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
Horibe wrote:
topazg wrote:
Also, the descent by White can sometimes be a mistake:



Essentially, the descent by White is only wrong if black blocked on the wrong side in the first place. Assuming black blocked correctly, the descent is rarely, rarely, rarely wrong.


Why would we assume Black blocked correctly, if he's also willing to play the hane?
Author:  Horibe [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
topazg wrote:
Horibe wrote:
topazg wrote:
Also, the descent by White can sometimes be a mistake:



Essentially, the descent by White is only wrong if black blocked on the wrong side in the first place. Assuming black blocked correctly, the descent is rarely, rarely, rarely wrong.


Why would we assume Black blocked correctly, if he's also willing to play the hane?


I don't. But the tendency is to think they made two mistakes. The mental ego commentary would be "This guy is so weak he blocked on the wrong side, and now he makes the hane mistake - watch me punish him with the descent...oh, he connected"

It is helpful to realize this. Your post suggests that the hane can be part of a good strategy. I think this is rare. You are right, however, that it can help repair a previous error.
Author:  BaghwanB [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
Chew Terr wrote:
CSam: Yeah, sometimes it can be hard to take advice well, even with the best of intentions. Maybe just say "Hey, mind looking at a couple things from the game?" so they can say no. You can always mention in advance that if your opponent has time, you'd love to go over the game a little after.


I'm basically dittoing the above.

In general, I'd say if you are testing the waters at a new club this kind of "I wonder about this..." approach may be seen as less confrontational (or smug). But it still takes someone kind of testy about it to refuse offered advice so I don't think you were out of line at all.

Bruce "H(uffy)R(esponse) Manager" Young
Author:  Solomon [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette
It's like losing a ladder game on SC2, and having the guy PM you immediately afterwards suggesting what you did wrong. He may have the best of intentions, but I'm still gonna block him.
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