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On the class system
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4081		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  gaius [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:12 am ]
Post subject:  On the class system
I noticed a somewhat interesting semantic discussion about English words for go rankings beginning from Bill Spight's post here and onwards.

What interested me is the suggestion to use the word "class" meaning "kyu", because in fact, the word class has been actively used in the Dutch rating system for a very, very long time. In fact, at least the Dutch rating commission still publishes a list with both dan-ratings and their equivalent "classes". Whether it has ever been actively used outside the Netherlands and Germany I do not know.

The "class" system is different from the kyu/dan system. I think the system was started by one of the original German go evangelics, but perhaps some of the more historically knowledgeable people can correct me on that. Essentially, it gets rid entirely of the kyu/dan seperation, and replaces it with a ladder. 1 dan is equivalent to either class 19 ('normal' 1 dan) or 18 ('strong' 1 dan); 2 dan equals class 17 or 16, 1 kyu equals class 21 or 20, and so forth. The system is actually excellent for making a casual handicap-blitz ladder at a go-club or go camp. Basically, every new player starts at the class corresponding to his/her actual strength, and handicaps are based on the class difference between players. Every time you lose a game, you lose one class, every time you win, you gain one class. Perfect!

I wonder: is anybody outside the Netherlands and Germany familiar with the class system? And has anyone ever used it actively?
Author:  EdLee [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:03 am ]
Post subject: 
The Chinese Go Association has been using a point rating system,
similar to the rating systems in chess, for I don't know how many years now.
Ever year, WeiQiTianDi ("The World of Weiqi") publishes a big table listing
all the current tournament-active Chinese pros according to this rating system,
instead of their pro dan ranks.

The American Go Association also has a point rating system,
but which conveniently maps back to dans and kyus
(+2.0 = 2dan; +1.0 = 1dan; -1.0 = 1kyu, -2.0 = 2kyu, etc.)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: On the class system
gaius wrote:
I noticed a somewhat interesting semantic discussion about English words for go rankings beginning from Bill Spight's post here and onwards.

What interested me is the suggestion to use the word "class" meaning "kyu", because in fact, the word class has been actively used in the Dutch rating system for a very, very long time. In fact, at least the Dutch rating commission still publishes a list with both dan-ratings and their equivalent "classes". Whether it has ever been actively used outside the Netherlands and Germany I do not know.


Is the word klasse in Dutch?

Quote:
The "class" system is different from the kyu/dan system. I think the system was started by one of the original German go evangelics, but perhaps some of the more historically knowledgeable people can correct me on that. Essentially, it gets rid entirely of the kyu/dan seperation, and replaces it with a ladder. 1 dan is equivalent to either class 19 ('normal' 1 dan) or 18 ('strong' 1 dan); 2 dan equals class 17 or 16, 1 kyu equals class 21 or 20, and so forth. . . .

I wonder: is anybody outside the Netherlands and Germany familiar with the class system? And has anyone ever used it actively?


We had something similar in New Mexico when I was there. We divided each dan or kyu rank in two, for handicap purposes. A strong shodan would take White against a weak shodan. Against a strong 1 kyu a strong shodan would either take White and give komi, or give two stones and take komi. How do you handicap in the Dutch system?

Also, IIUC, in the original dan system in Japan a difference of one dan meant a handicap difference of 1/2 stone. (Now the difference is smaller. Under Ing's system a one p'ing difference means a handicap difference of 1/4 stone. Besides, do pros still give other pros handicaps these day?)
Author:  hyperpape [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: On the class system
My first thought that this was going to be a political post and we were headed for a TOS violating flamewar.
Author:  Pingwin [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: On the class system
Quote:
Is the word klasse in Dutch?


Yes, it is.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: On the class system
Bill Spight wrote:
We had something similar in New Mexico when I was there. We divided each dan or kyu rank in two, for handicap purposes. A strong shodan would take White against a weak shodan. Against a strong 1 kyu a strong shodan would either take White and give komi, or give two stones and take komi. How do you handicap in the Dutch system?


Same: http://senseis.xmp.net/?DutchClassSystem

Quote:
Also, IIUC, in the original dan system in Japan a difference of one dan meant a handicap difference of 1/2 stone.


Are you talking of professional dan ranks here, or amateur?

For professionals, using the system as described at http://senseis.xmp.net/?MatchHandicapSystem, there would seem to be three ranks per handicap stone

Quote:
(Now the difference is smaller. Under Ing's system a one p'ing difference means a handicap difference of 1/4 stone. Besides, do pros still give other pros handicaps these day?)


Actually, IIUC, Ing specifies 2 points per ping (pro rank) as an appropriate adjustment to the komi, which is just 1/8th of a stone, as it is 1/4th of the Ing komi of 8 (which is 1/2 a stone)
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: On the class system
Quote:
I wonder: is anybody outside the Netherlands and Germany familiar with the class system? And has anyone ever used it actively?


The German system goes back a long way and was often remarked on in Japanese magazines in days of yore. Not in the sense of "oh what an interesting idea" sort of way, but more "dogs walk on their hindlegs over there".

The British used it (or a version) for some time about 40 years ago. I'm speculating, but I think the system was popular in Europe in the days when there were no or very few dan players. Every one was then a kyu but many people were never quite sure whether high kyu was good or bad. The use of numbers was maybe thought to fix that problem.

Now we have lots of dans and so the class system in the other sense arises. I heard a story yesterday about a well known snob who was intensely troubled by having to travel in the same car as his chauffeur. Many dans now seem to regard kyus as chauffeurs - one (minor) argument in favour of a single scale.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: On the class system
HermanHiddema wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
We had something similar in New Mexico when I was there. We divided each dan or kyu rank in two, for handicap purposes. A strong shodan would take White against a weak shodan. Against a strong 1 kyu a strong shodan would either take White and give komi, or give two stones and take komi. How do you handicap in the Dutch system?


Same: http://senseis.xmp.net/?DutchClassSystem


Thanks. :)

Quote:
Quote:
Also, IIUC, in the original dan system in Japan a difference of one dan meant a handicap difference of 1/2 stone.


Are you talking of professional dan ranks here, or amateur?

For professionals, using the system as described at http://senseis.xmp.net/?MatchHandicapSystem, there would seem to be three ranks per handicap stone


As I recall, going further back in history, the next handicap after Black was Black-Two stones, and the next after that was Two stones, etc. (I think that a one dan difference was not consistent with that, however.) And this was for pros, OC.

Quote:
Quote:
(Now the difference is smaller. Under Ing's system a one p'ing difference means a handicap difference of 1/4 stone. Besides, do pros still give other pros handicaps these day?)


Actually, IIUC, Ing specifies 2 points per ping (pro rank) as an appropriate adjustment to the komi, which is just 1/8th of a stone, as it is 1/4th of the Ing komi of 8 (which is 1/2 a stone)


Ing's 2 points are zi. From the 1996 Ing rules ( http://www.usgo.org/resources/downloads ... es2006.pdf ), p. 51: "Ping Difference between ranks: 1/4 play or 2 points"
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