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How do you "force" yourself to read and think
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Author:  mic [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  How do you "force" yourself to read and think
Hi,

I think one of the biggest hurdles for improving is that I'm way too undisciplined (one could even say lazy) about reading and thinking in actual games. I played a lot of faster intuitive games when I learned the game and now have problems to take my time to think.

Although I *can* read a few moves deep (I'm still trying to improve breadth since I prune too much) and have a high success rate when doing simple tsumegos (i.e. Graded Go Problems Vol 3, >90% correct), I often don't do it.

Please, no discussions about "then why do you play go?". I play go for fun but I think that I could have more fun (in the sense of a better game with fewer mistakes) when I successfully fight my bad habit. But knowing and doing are two different things ;-)

So, what are your strategies to fight a bad habit (in general) and especially not thinking/reading enough?

Cheers,
mic
Author:  entropi [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
A good way for online games is to take your hand far from the mouse after making each move and don't touch it again until you make up your mind where to move with a reasoning.
Author:  Mef [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
I seem to think this particular type of question is rather boring.... (=


But seriously -- I have the same issue. I think a lot of it is patience (or lack thereof). I've gone on record a couple times hoping for a reverse byo-yomi time system (where I have to wait 20 seconds every move before I'm allowed to play). For a while when playing online I would try to do things like set the mouse behind my computer after I make a move (that way I have to think, then reach behind the computer to pick the mouse up and move it back, then make a move). A slightly less severe option would be simply flipping the mouse over. The real life analogue that gets suggested every once in a while is setting your bowl on a different table from the one you are playing at (again operating to the same effect). At the end of the day though I feel like all of this is more or less training wheels skirting around the real issue though of how to make yourself slow down in a game. I've heard some people go through a checklist every single move (whether they need it or not). I've also heard suggested to always read out until you reach a move you're unsure of (again, even if it's an obvious response like connecting atari, or answering a ko threat). Personally, even when I don't go to the extremes mentioned earlier, I still settle for something physical -- a cup of tea will keep my hand occupied for a bit and force me to think...
Author:  Fedya [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
I just wish the extra thinking time would help me come up with better moves. :oops:
Author:  Mef [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
Mef wrote:
<Paragraph>



Ah, somehow when writing this response I forgot to mention the age-old tried and true method -- Sit on your hands (=
Author:  mic [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
@Mef,

as you correctly mentioned all these things fight the symptoms but not the disease. Although I'm quite disciplined in other areas of life (sports, work, ...) I somehow cannot manage to force me to think more (constantly).


@Helel,

That's what I tell myself since the early DDK days. With a bit more tsuemgo training I could read better and *then* I will use it. Actually, even as a DDK, you *could* read as far as I-play-here-where-does-my-opponent-play-and-how-does-it-look (modulo branching/pruning/evaluation problems).


- mic
Author:  mic [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
Mef wrote:
I seem to think this particular type of question is rather boring.... (=

:P It might, but for me it's quite important at the current state of my go carreer.

- mic
Author:  Mef [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
mic wrote:
@Mef,

as you correctly mentioned all these things fight the symptoms but not the disease. Although I'm quite disciplined in other areas of life (sports, work, ...) I somehow cannot manage to force me to think more (constantly).




I think to an extent, some of these things can act like training wheels on a bicycle so to speak. Training wheels are a device that merely fights the symptom (the bike falling falling over) until you have the control needed to not need them any more (and then at some point even if they are there, you are no longer actually using them for stability). Likewise, I think (in spite of how philosophically unappealing they may be) some of these "tricks" can help even if they don't directly hit at the root cause (=

There's the old saying/joke about how you are two stones stronger when you kibitz...I think part of that is being removed from the flow of play forces you to look at the position longer, whether you want to or not (of course there are other reasons it might be easier to see moves when kibitzing too, but I think this is at least one of them)...Hence introducing artifacts to remove some of the flow control in your own games might help force you (or at least encourage you) to study a position longer.
Author:  tapir [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
The diagnosis is always the first step...

Play slow games. Find someone you don't want to lose against.
Author:  Solomon [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
Hmm, you didn't specify if this is a problem you're dealing with online, in club games, and/or in tournaments.
Author:  mic [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
tapir wrote:
Find someone you don't want to lose against.

To be honest I don't know anyone whom I *want* to lose to ;-) Do you?

- mic
Author:  mic [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
Araban wrote:
Hmm, you didn't specify if this is a problem you're dealing with online, in club games, and/or in tournaments.

Oh sorry. It's a problem when playing online. I've never been to a tournament (yet) and the only real life games I play are against a friend of mine whom I can give nine stones (although he's improving) and still play quite fast.

- mic
Author:  Solomon [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
A lot of these suggestions are physical. Sitting on your hands, holding a cup, keeping your hand off the mouse...while I don't think these are necessarily bad suggestions, I do think it's a bit excessive. I used to also have the same problem of playing too fast and relying too much on intuition and feel. What helped me change that was my first experience on Tygem. When I saw the 9-dans play there, I immediately noticed that they frequently used every last drop of their byoyomi in their games, whether it was 20 or 30 seconds long. Even in positions where there was only one obvious move, the player would still at times wait until the last second before making their move.

I don't know why, but I found this a little awe-inspiring. Even in online games, these strong amas/pros are very strict in how they use their time. This in turn motivated me to try and emulate what they do. When it's my turn and I'm in byoyomi, I mentally place my intuitive move on the board and try to come up with a better move. Near the final seconds, if I can't and I'm reasonably confident I can't find one, I just play it. If I'm still not sure, I play a time tesuji. Even when the move is plain-as-day obvious like taking back the ko of a big ko fight, I try to do this. I can't say with confidence that I've dramatically improved from all of this, but I do like to think that my games look a lot better now; at the very least, they are more meaningful to me. And yes, I do leave my mouse hand on my mouse.

tl;dr: Find motivation and it won't feel like you're being "forced" to read and think.
Author:  Horibe [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
Araban wrote:
A lot of these suggestions are physical. Sitting on your hands, holding a cup, keeping your hand off the mouse...while I don't think these are necessarily bad suggestions, I do think it's a bit excessive. I used to also have the same problem of playing too fast and relying too much on intuition and feel. What helped me change that was my first experience on Tygem. When I saw the 9-dans play there, I immediately noticed that they frequently used every last drop of their byoyomi in their games, whether it was 20 or 30 seconds long. Even in positions where there was only one obvious move, the player would still at times wait until the last second before making their move.

I don't know why, but I found this a little awe-inspiring. Even in online games, these strong amas/pros are very strict in how they use their time. This in turn motivated me to try and emulate what they do. When it's my turn and I'm in byoyomi, I mentally place my intuitive move on the board and try to come up with a better move. Near the final seconds, if I can't and I'm reasonably confident I can't find one, I just play it. If I'm still not sure, I play a time tesuji. Even when the move is plain-as-day obvious like taking back the ko of a big ko fight, I try to do this. I can't say with confidence that I've dramatically improved from all of this, but I do like to think that my games look a lot better now; at the very least, they are more meaningful to me. And yes, I do leave my mouse hand on my mouse.

tl;dr: Find motivation and it won't feel like you're being "forced" to read and think.


I think this is a simply fantastic story, I am not sure the example of pros in byo yomi applies directly to his problem, but your advice re not playing the instant move till you think a bit is great.

The story reminds me of a true but counter intuitive maxim of mine - More people lose blitz games by playing too fast than by playing too slow.
Author:  jts [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
Magicwand once mentioned on here that he sits on his hands.

I often get up, get a glass of water, stretch, whatever, and come back to the board with fresh eyes. (Hopefully.) You can also try to read out three or four stones deep before you play a stone, even for "obvious" sequences". In fuseki you can try to make a point of considering every reasonable big move; before starting a joseki, try to think of at least two other options.

What Helel says really strikes me as true. It would seem that if you practicing counting or reading ladders (two things I've been doing recently) you would spend less time doing those things in games, but in fact even though I'm quicker I do it more slowly.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
Francis Meyer came to a tournament in Boulder a while back (2nd place in U.S. open 2010, only losing to Myung Wan Kim). He played VERY slowly, using the entire 45 minute allotment in the first 50 moves or so. He spent most of every game playing 30 seconds per move on his last byo-yomi, and never once played the move before the 28 second mark. To me I think playing so close to a time loss every move would be more nerve-racking than helpful, but it was certainly inspiring.
Author:  Suji [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
emeraldemon wrote:
Francis Meyer came to a tournament in Boulder a while back (2nd place in U.S. open 2010, only losing to Myung Wan Kim). He played VERY slowly, using the entire 45 minute allotment in the first 50 moves or so. He spent most of every game playing 30 seconds per move on his last byo-yomi, and never once played the move before the 28 second mark. To me I think playing so close to a time loss every move would be more nerve-racking than helpful, but it was certainly inspiring.


This is one extreme, but I'm on the other extreme, playing fast, like mic. This guy must have nerves of steel, being in time trouble all the time, or really confident that he won't make a reading mistake. Personally, I'm afraid of losing on time, and that's why I play fast.

I think once you know the reasons that you play fast, one can correct it. You just have to fix the problem at the root.
Author:  tapir [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
mic wrote:
tapir wrote:
Find someone you don't want to lose against.

To be honest I don't know anyone whom I *want* to lose to ;-) Do you?

- mic


I really mean it. There are people I just don't want to lose against (in my case everyone who ignores my forcing moves without outreading me but relying on me messing up the follow up). Learning to accept defeat is wise, but only after going all out against them.

I don't believe that you have to rely on tricks to make yourself read, if only you take the games you play seriously. If it is online play, playing the same players repeatedly or playing in some sort of formal or informal league may help, playing only ranked games is useful as well.
Author:  xed_over [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
I've recorded several US Congress games of MyungWan Kim, and he plays the same way... never even moving his hand toward the bowl of stones until the last 1 or 2 seconds.

But you guys misunderstand... they're not even playing "close to a time loss" as you or I might see it. Compared to most people's blitz games, 30 seconds is an eternity (and US Congress games are usually 60 second periods, IIRC) -- and its forever renewable to boot!

Most of the time, they already know where they are going to play, having already read it out earlier. They're just not throwing away that valuable "extra" time to keep reading even further (including using their opponent's time also). And if they really do need more time, then they just play a timesuji -- forever renewable, remember.

With byo-yomi, they have all the time in the world!
Author:  rubin427 [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you "force" yourself to read and think
Imagine your teacher has just now walked up behind you and has begun observing your game. Imagine your teacher has found the best move and is willing you to find it also. "Keep looking. Find the best move. Go is about finding the best move." You can hear his voice in your head...

... or maybe I'm the only one hearing voices.
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