Life In 19x19 :: Depression and go

I'm really glad you brought this up.

I feel like depression disproportionally effects gaming communities. It's not a pleasant topic, but given a number of suicides in the community, I wonder if this isn't an important place for the AGA and other similar organizations to spend some resources.

I don't believe go or chess, or any of these other games cause depression. But they can become a crutch when other things in life are not going well.

I am certainly not competent to give any advice here, but maybe it helps to think of the positive aspects and sort of weigh them against the problematic ones. I agree with Gorim's post that the game is probably not the problem. On the contrary, I would asume that the game could even be used to train to deal with those fears etc.

I don't believe Go organisations should spent resources to "fight with depression". It would be very rare if possible for this game to be the cause of depression, so no point in trying to solve the problem from this side.

Well, as a side point my psychologist at the moment has me doing thought diaries where I lay out the evidence for and against negative thoughts including go related ones (a CBT exercise). It's rather interesting how far from reality the mind can stray. E.g. I feel like I play worse than I did when I started playing go but um, I've gained over 7 stones since then and aren't getting utterly crushed by my opponents at the moment so the evidence is stacked against such a thought. Hard to shake it though.

It seems fairly irresponsible to speculate about the prevalence of depression and suicide among Go players in the absence of any quantitative evidence. Just to give ourselves a yardstick:

Boidhre wrote:

I think that's a rather more universal phenomenon. The more you learn about a field, the more you understand its pinnacles, and the more emotional weight you put on them. When I first played Go I was rather proud to have beaten my father, who knew only the rules, whereas now I'm disappointed to lose to people six stones stronger than I.

MDE isn't the totality of depression.

jts wrote:

Maybe I was unclear. I think my 22-30k self would beat my current 15k self in an even game.

Which brings us to a tangent in the conversation.
Most of us believe that time spent practicing and playing Go is time well spent.
How do you feel about the fact there are a large number of people out there who don't respect time spent on mental pursuits like Go? There is a depressingly large number of people in this world (American, European, Japanese...) who believe that Go is just a game and that time spent studying it would be better spent doing something else.

Yes, I understand the feeling and I was proposing a mechanism. When you are relatively ignorant about a field, you think you know 90% of what there is to know about 90% of the special skill-sets and areas of knowledge in that field, so you feel quite competent. As you dig deeper - pushing for 95%/95%, or so you think - you realize that there are many more fields than you had ever imagined, and that the details of each of them are actually quite difficult, but rewarding, to master. Now you think you know 10% of what there is to know about 10% of the special skills and areas, and you feel bumbling and foolish. At the same time, what had previously seemed like a tiny number of savants whom you would never meet now seem like experts in the field whom you admire and aspire to emulate, and so you feel rather low on the totem pole. Comparing how you feel now (more ignorant) to how you felt then (more competent), how could you not be attracted to the idea that it is actually you who has regressed?

I know, at a theoretical level, that jts_[2k?] would whip jts_[6k]. That's just what the numbers mean. And I even accept in principle that for this to be true, jts_[2k?] must know a little bit more about Go than jts_[6k]. However, if you dig into any particular sub-area of Go (joseki, tesuji, opening principles, attack and defense, L&D, whatever), I'm quite convinced that I've gotten worse. It's impossible, but it definitely feels that way, and I can't really convince myself otherwise. So you're not alone in feeling that way, even if you feel it earlier and more intensely than other people.

It seems fairly irresponsible to speculate about the prevalence of depression and suicide among Go players in the absence of any quantitative evidence.

Lifetime prevalence estimates of hierarchy-free DSM-III-R/DSM-IV MDE varied widely, from 3% in Japan to 16.9% in the US

jts wrote:

It seems fairly irresponsible to speculate about the prevalence of depression and suicide among Go players in the absence of any quantitative evidence.

I don't know if irresponsible is the word you're looking for here. Certainly, before any money was appropriated to raising awareness, you'd have to do studies. But you would never do the studies in the first place unless you speculated that there might be a correlation.

If 100 persons enter a single elimination tournament and each person gets depressed if they lose, then 99% of the people in the tournament are guaranteed to become depressed as there will only be one "WINNER" of the tournament.

...
I feel like depression disproportionally effects gaming communities. It's not a pleasant topic, but given a number of suicides in the community ...

Author:	Boidhre [ Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Depression and go
I've seen a few people talking about it. What I wonder is how it affects your play/interest/thoughts about the game. I get pessimistic about my play, when I look over my games all I can see are the errors. I lose at least a stone in ability I think, though this could be me being negative again? I get anxious about playing and "looking bad" even though really at my level this will happen regardless! Oh and I play very little and I think I'd completely lose interest in the game for a while if I didn't fight this. I'm curious because I'm nosey but also I believe in fighting stigma by being open about this kind of stuff, not that communities like these are very prejudiced against it or anything. Also, how do you tackle the effect depression has on your game and your life in general? Do you continue to chip away at the game be it through tsumego or whatever or do you put it aside until you feel better again? I'm also curious about general slumps people have, not just clinical depression! I'm also obviously talking about mild depressions here/lead ups to more serious depressions rather than more serious hospitilisation levels of depression where just eating is going to be a challenge never mind playing go!

Author:	shapenaji [ Tue May 01, 2012 12:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
I'm really glad you brought this up. I feel like depression disproportionally effects gaming communities. It's not a pleasant topic, but given a number of suicides in the community, I wonder if this isn't an important place for the AGA and other similar organizations to spend some resources. I don't believe go or chess, or any of these other games cause depression. But they can become a crutch when other things in life are not going well.

Author:	Dokuganryu [ Tue May 01, 2012 1:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
I don't believe Go organisations should spent resources to "fight with depression". It would be very rare if possible for this game to be the cause of depression, so no point in trying to solve the problem from this side. Of course when You're in a depression and perform poorly in the game, it can lead to even worse feelings, but than again it is depression that leads to this not the game. Without the game a depressed person still has a huge set of choices how to make his life worse. About how I try to cope with my slumps/bad periods - I try to overcome them. So for example when I am on a loosing streak I tend to play less, but still try to play some games. This is because I fear that subordinating yourself to those fears can lead to more such situations. In the long run such "precaution measures" like playing less/playing free games only/doing only tsumego/etc. can amass, and You won't be able to enjoy or even finish a game. Having said all that I am relatively new to the game, so my attitude and ideas will probably change over time.

Author:	Boidhre [ Tue May 01, 2012 1:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
shapenaji wrote: I'm really glad you brought this up. I feel like depression disproportionally effects gaming communities. It's not a pleasant topic, but given a number of suicides in the community, I wonder if this isn't an important place for the AGA and other similar organizations to spend some resources. I don't believe go or chess, or any of these other games cause depression. But they can become a crutch when other things in life are not going well. Hmm, I suspect it's more that in gaming (and other) subcultures people are more open about mental illness than it being substantially more common in them though certainly more unusual subcultures might attract more unusual people and people with mental health problems might fit this description. I mean depression is shockingly common in Western countries. It's just hidden from view most of the time by most people who have it. I could be completely wrong of course, I've no stats to back up my argument. There definitely is some escapism in games that makes them attractive when life is going poorly but one could say the same about many, many things in life.

Author:	SpongeBob [ Tue May 01, 2012 1:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
I think everyone knows the feeling of looking stupid during the game. And there is the fear of losing a game or maybe not improving anymore. These feelings exist and a 'healthy' person can accept them. But they are there and you have to deal with them - at least if you do not want quit paying. But this is very much like with all other things, which mostly have good and bad aspects to it. For me, the game of Go has a so many positive aspects that the negative ones are almost negligible. I am certainly not competent to give any advice here (and someone suffering from depression should seek professional advice), but maybe it helps to think of the positive aspects and sort of weigh them against the problematic ones. I agree with Gorim's post that the game is probably not the problem. On the contrary, I would asume that the game could even be used to train to deal with those fears etc.

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Author:	Boidhre [ Tue May 01, 2012 1:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
SpongeBob wrote: I am certainly not competent to give any advice here, but maybe it helps to think of the positive aspects and sort of weigh them against the problematic ones. I agree with Gorim's post that the game is probably not the problem. On the contrary, I would asume that the game could even be used to train to deal with those fears etc. Well, as a side point my psychologist at the moment has me doing thought diaries where I lay out the evidence for and against negative thoughts including go related ones (a CBT exercise). It's rather interesting how far from reality the mind can stray. E.g. I feel like I play worse than I did when I started playing go but um, I've gained over 7 stones since then and aren't getting utterly crushed by my opponents at the moment so the evidence is stacked against such a thought. Hard to shake it though. You need to tackle depression on all fronts if possible. Otherwise it starts winning. This can be really, really difficult though. Things like go can help though. If you let it depression will rob any interest you have in such hobbies (again, talking about milder depressions, bluntly, if I'm feeling suicidal and/or very agitated I'm not going to care about go or much else). You can get trapped in a thought cycle that convinces you that you're a) no good at the hobby anymore, b) don't enjoy it anymore because of a) and c) should give it up because of a) and b) combined. All personal experience stuff obviously, no advice being given.

Author:	shapenaji [ Tue May 01, 2012 1:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
Gorim wrote: I don't believe Go organisations should spent resources to "fight with depression". It would be very rare if possible for this game to be the cause of depression, so no point in trying to solve the problem from this side. Causality isn't necessary here. Like I said, I don't believe go causes it, I even think go can help (to a degree). But, if you know there is an issue which has a strong effect on your player base, it seems silly to ignore it.

Author:	Dokuganryu [ Tue May 01, 2012 2:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
Good we all agree that go in fact can help us become better and live better lives In fact the handicap mechanism is very "therapeutic" as it aims at making even chances for both players, so in other words it aims at making the better player lose half the time. It encourages us to enjoy and concentrate, not think blindly about the result. To bad my mind knows it, but my emotions are far from it often.

Author:	jts [ Tue May 01, 2012 5:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
It seems fairly irresponsible to speculate about the prevalence of depression and suicide among Go players in the absence of any quantitative evidence. Just to give ourselves a yardstick: Lifetime prevalence estimates of hierarchy-free DSM-III-R/DSM-IV MDE varied widely, from 3% in Japan to 16.9% in the US, with the majority in the range of 8% to 12%. The 12-month/lifetime prevalence ratio was in the range 40% to 55%, the 30-day/12-month prevalence ratio in the range 45% to 65%, and median age of onset in the range 20 to 25 in most countries. Consistent socio-demographic correlates included being female and unmarried. Respondents in recent cohorts reported higher lifetime prevalence, but lower persistence than those in earlier cohorts. Major depressive episodes were found to be strongly co-morbid with, and temporally secondary to, anxiety disorders in all countries, with primary panic and generalized anxiety disorders the most powerful predictors of the first onset of secondary MDE. Boidhre wrote: Well, as a side point my psychologist at the moment has me doing thought diaries where I lay out the evidence for and against negative thoughts including go related ones (a CBT exercise). It's rather interesting how far from reality the mind can stray. E.g. I feel like I play worse than I did when I started playing go but um, I've gained over 7 stones since then and aren't getting utterly crushed by my opponents at the moment so the evidence is stacked against such a thought. Hard to shake it though. I think that's a rather more universal phenomenon. The more you learn about a field, the more you understand its pinnacles, and the more emotional weight you put on them. When I first played Go I was rather proud to have beaten my father, who knew only the rules, whereas now I'm disappointed to lose to people six stones stronger than I.

Author:	tchan001 [ Tue May 01, 2012 5:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
If 100 persons enter a single elimination tournament and each person gets depressed if they lose, then 99% of the people in the tournament are guaranteed to become depressed as there will only be one "WINNER" of the tournament.

Author:	Boidhre [ Tue May 01, 2012 8:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
jts wrote: It seems fairly irresponsible to speculate about the prevalence of depression and suicide among Go players in the absence of any quantitative evidence. Just to give ourselves a yardstick: Lifetime prevalence estimates of hierarchy-free DSM-III-R/DSM-IV MDE varied widely, from 3% in Japan to 16.9% in the US, with the majority in the range of 8% to 12%. The 12-month/lifetime prevalence ratio was in the range 40% to 55%, the 30-day/12-month prevalence ratio in the range 45% to 65%, and median age of onset in the range 20 to 25 in most countries. Consistent socio-demographic correlates included being female and unmarried. Respondents in recent cohorts reported higher lifetime prevalence, but lower persistence than those in earlier cohorts. Major depressive episodes were found to be strongly co-morbid with, and temporally secondary to, anxiety disorders in all countries, with primary panic and generalized anxiety disorders the most powerful predictors of the first onset of secondary MDE. MDE isn't the totality of depression. jts wrote: Boidhre wrote: Well, as a side point my psychologist at the moment has me doing thought diaries where I lay out the evidence for and against negative thoughts including go related ones (a CBT exercise). It's rather interesting how far from reality the mind can stray. E.g. I feel like I play worse than I did when I started playing go but um, I've gained over 7 stones since then and aren't getting utterly crushed by my opponents at the moment so the evidence is stacked against such a thought. Hard to shake it though. I think that's a rather more universal phenomenon. The more you learn about a field, the more you understand its pinnacles, and the more emotional weight you put on them. When I first played Go I was rather proud to have beaten my father, who knew only the rules, whereas now I'm disappointed to lose to people six stones stronger than I. Maybe I was unclear. I think my 22-30k self would beat my current 15k self in an even game.

Author:	Koosh [ Tue May 01, 2012 8:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
I think there are two aspects of Go that could easily relate to depression. 1. People who play go entirely on the internet. 2. (For some people) Spending a huge amount of time with Go, and regretting it later. For #1, I think this is pretty straightforward. Go is a game, and games include a social element. This social element while not impossible is difficult to replicate on the internet. Also, I remember years ago when I visited Japan for the first time and played at a number of local Go clubs. It was difficult to play with the members of the club for any long period of time since we could not communicate. I had a completely different experience when I returned a few years later with enough Japanese to communicate with ease. The social experience is a huge part of Go. For #2, I can still remember a story told by an older man at our local go club. He loved Go and was at our club many times per week. He claimed that he really felt alive when he was playing and around Go players. He would often tell the same stories - one was of a time when he was supposed to pick up the president of some company at the airport and happened upon two people battling it out in the airport lobby. He quickly became caught up in the game and ended up arriving late to pick up the arriving CEO. It caused him some professional damage and often joked about how stupid the whole thing was and how he wasted so much of his life sitting in front of a board covered with black and white pieces. Which brings us to a tangent in the conversation. Most of us believe that time spent practicing and playing Go is time well spent. How do you feel about the fact there are a large number of people out there who don't respect time spent on mental pursuits like Go? There is a depressingly large number of people in this world (American, European, Japanese...) who believe that Go is just a game and that time spent studying it would be better spent doing something else.

Author:	jts [ Tue May 01, 2012 9:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
Boidhre wrote: MDE isn't the totality of depression. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was. But because shapenaji implied that the Go community had a special relation to depression and suicide, I thought it might be helpful to have some numbers to work with. Dysthymia and non-clinical episodes with anxiety and sadness are undoubtedly even more common. Boidhre wrote: jts wrote: I think that's a rather more universal phenomenon. The more you learn about a field, the more you understand its pinnacles, and the more emotional weight you put on them. When I first played Go I was rather proud to have beaten my father, who knew only the rules, whereas now I'm disappointed to lose to people six stones stronger than I. Maybe I was unclear. I think my 22-30k self would beat my current 15k self in an even game. Yes, I understand the feeling and I was proposing a mechanism. When you are relatively ignorant about a field, you think you know 90% of what there is to know about 90% of the special skill-sets and areas of knowledge in that field, so you feel quite competent. As you dig deeper - pushing for 95%/95%, or so you think - you realize that there are many more fields than you had ever imagined, and that the details of each of them are actually quite difficult, but rewarding, to master. Now you think you know 10% of what there is to know about 10% of the special skills and areas, and you feel bumbling and foolish. At the same time, what had previously seemed like a tiny number of savants whom you would never meet now seem like experts in the field whom you admire and aspire to emulate, and so you feel rather low on the totem pole. Comparing how you feel now (more ignorant) to how you felt then (more competent), how could you not be attracted to the idea that it is actually you who has regressed? I know, at a theoretical level, that jts_[2k?] would whip jts_[6k]. That's just what the numbers mean. And I even accept in principle that for this to be true, jts_[2k?] must know a little bit more about Go than jts_[6k]. However, if you dig into any particular sub-area of Go (joseki, tesuji, opening principles, attack and defense, L&D, whatever), I'm quite convinced that I've gotten worse. It's impossible, but it definitely feels that way, and I can't really convince myself otherwise. So you're not alone in feeling that way, even if you feel it earlier and more intensely than other people.

Author:	jts [ Tue May 01, 2012 9:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
Koosh wrote: Which brings us to a tangent in the conversation. Most of us believe that time spent practicing and playing Go is time well spent. How do you feel about the fact there are a large number of people out there who don't respect time spent on mental pursuits like Go? There is a depressingly large number of people in this world (American, European, Japanese...) who believe that Go is just a game and that time spent studying it would be better spent doing something else. Perhaps for a separate thread, but.... Given the amount of time that people spend watching television in modern society, it's hard to believe that anything at all could count as wasted time. However, the very fact that Go is more intellectually and even emotionally intense than many other leisure activities (mine, at least) makes me wonder what an hour of Go replaces.

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Author:	Boidhre [ Tue May 01, 2012 10:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
jts wrote: Yes, I understand the feeling and I was proposing a mechanism. When you are relatively ignorant about a field, you think you know 90% of what there is to know about 90% of the special skill-sets and areas of knowledge in that field, so you feel quite competent. As you dig deeper - pushing for 95%/95%, or so you think - you realize that there are many more fields than you had ever imagined, and that the details of each of them are actually quite difficult, but rewarding, to master. Now you think you know 10% of what there is to know about 10% of the special skills and areas, and you feel bumbling and foolish. At the same time, what had previously seemed like a tiny number of savants whom you would never meet now seem like experts in the field whom you admire and aspire to emulate, and so you feel rather low on the totem pole. Comparing how you feel now (more ignorant) to how you felt then (more competent), how could you not be attracted to the idea that it is actually you who has regressed? I know, at a theoretical level, that jts_[2k?] would whip jts_[6k]. That's just what the numbers mean. And I even accept in principle that for this to be true, jts_[2k?] must know a little bit more about Go than jts_[6k]. However, if you dig into any particular sub-area of Go (joseki, tesuji, opening principles, attack and defense, L&D, whatever), I'm quite convinced that I've gotten worse. It's impossible, but it definitely feels that way, and I can't really convince myself otherwise. So you're not alone in feeling that way, even if you feel it earlier and more intensely than other people. Hmm, I get what you're saying. I suppose the thing is when you start to believe it and lose sight of the reality.

Author:	shapenaji [ Tue May 01, 2012 10:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
jts wrote: It seems fairly irresponsible to speculate about the prevalence of depression and suicide among Go players in the absence of any quantitative evidence. I don't know if irresponsible is the word you're looking for here. Certainly, before any money was appropriated to raising awareness, you'd have to do studies. But you would never do the studies in the first place unless you speculated that there might be a correlation.

Author:	Insane [ Tue May 01, 2012 11:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
jts wrote: Lifetime prevalence estimates of hierarchy-free DSM-III-R/DSM-IV MDE varied widely, from 3% in Japan to 16.9% in the US Reading these numbers one should remember that the suicide rate is significantly higher in Japan. OECD statistics:

Author:	jts [ Tue May 01, 2012 11:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
shapenaji wrote: jts wrote: It seems fairly irresponsible to speculate about the prevalence of depression and suicide among Go players in the absence of any quantitative evidence. I don't know if irresponsible is the word you're looking for here. Certainly, before any money was appropriated to raising awareness, you'd have to do studies. But you would never do the studies in the first place unless you speculated that there might be a correlation. Well, it's a serious disease. It would be pretty ___________ to speculate that herpes, or the bubonic plague, or schizophrenia, or pancreatic cancer were disproportionately prevalent among Go players. Fill in the blank. I of course did not mean to imply that you, personally, were irresponsible: but today's bold speculation is the specious common wisdom of tomorrow.

Author:	Mef [ Tue May 01, 2012 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
tchan001 wrote: If 100 persons enter a single elimination tournament and each person gets depressed if they lose, then 99% of the people in the tournament are guaranteed to become depressed as there will only be one "WINNER" of the tournament. Don't forget that the TD who gets depressed trying to nicely work out a 100 person field in a single elim set up (I guess you give the top 28 first round byes?)

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Tue May 01, 2012 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Depression and go
shapenaji wrote: ... I feel like depression disproportionally effects gaming communities. It's not a pleasant topic, but given a number of suicides in the community ... Got any figures to substantiate this? I wasn't aware of this at all. Personally, I feel that the number of people who kill themselves is lower than it ought to be.