I've recently discovered Battousai's lecture series, and I'm having a blast with them. I really like his open Q&A teaching style, and feel like I'm learning a lot at my current level (kgs 6k).

I just watched this video by him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1HJcmn3V-E

In it, an amateur player plays against a pro, and tries to pull off the interesting strategy of playing tengen and then invading every single corner, then going ahead and doing his best to live in the center.

I found it an extremely interesting game to watch, and I must admit I fell a little in love with the idea behind that particular strategy.

However, Bat's comments were along the line of how annoying that strategy was, how little he would like to play against it, and how he didn't enforce to use it.

My understanding of Go is still very small. I remember when I didn't consider rejecting handicap and playing lost games to the end breaches of etiquette. Only through playing I got to appreciate how those, plus things like prospective invasions, are bad things to do. However, I'm having a hard time to see how the strategy showcased in this particular video should be considered unpolite or breaching etiquette. Granted, it relies heavily on the opponent making mistakes, but that on itself shouldn't be a problem per se, shouldn't it? If I were to face a strategy like this and realize my opponent shows a style of play in which I'm being pressured and tested, in a form of psychological warfare, I wouldn't get annoyed by that player, but accept the challenge.

Maybe I am missing something? Is it really unpolite to play like this? Are Bat's comments like "many players would resign after move three and just go and play another game" correct? I would like to play this strategy some day, if only to see what I can learn from it, but not if it's a blatant breach of etiquette.

Thanks in advance for your insight.

In my opinion, it's not rude, provided you respect your opponent. Until then, it is good to explore creative moves, I feel.

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be immersed

I think it's poor style and bad Go but it sure is an effective strategy against some players.

In the end the answer, whether to use it or not, depends on your goal: Do you like a high win-ratio or do you want to improve your Go skill?

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I don't find anything wrong with such a strategy from a politeness standpoint. But I'm going to have to echo SoDesuNe in that I don't feel it is a good way to play.(All the time at least) Ideally you'd want to play in such a way that you will win if your opponent makes zero mistakes, that's how I see it at least.
In regards to how annoying this style of play is:
I always find the "invade everywhere and live in the center" type players to be relaxing opponents. Once I realize what they're doing I start actively creating influence, since we both know exactly what the other persons strategy is by move 3-10, it comes down to a shape game in the center. I have a pretty decent w/l ratio against this kind of player and enjoy playing them to get a chance to review my direction of play in fights. The trick I've found is attack to make territory, not to kill.

I watched the same video yesterday (thanks Uberdude) and enjoyed it. Imagine my delight when on Tygem this morning some fellow played something very similar against me, out of the blue. Sadly, I have to report that I failed to convert all the tips I had just seen in the video into a victory, but I thoroughly enjoyed the game.

I can't quite understand feeling disrespected because my opponent isn't playing perfect go against me. At my level, practically every other move must be an error of some degree, and so where so you draw the line? I've just finished reading quite a long thread about this very topic, and admit to being baffled through most of it, because of that. Live a little and experiment, and enjoy it if you come up against someone doing the same thing.

What can be considered impolite is not so much that it relies on the opponent making mistakes, but that it puts the ball entirely in the court of the opponent. Similar to hedgehog strategies in chess, where you are basically saying "I'm not going to make any effort of winning, I'll just sit here and see what you do. If you mess up, I'll enjoy the effortless win, thank you".

Trying out those strategies and learning how to defeat them is certainly valid, but only playing this way, enjoying the effortless wins while shrugging off the defeats is in my view not a respectable way of playing go (and neither will it teach you to become a better go player).

It isn't impolite, as long as you resign if it becomes clear you can't win.
It isn't really as bad a strategy as he says, because tengen is ultimately a territorial move.

You could always say, "I'm terribly sorry that I'm playing a style that isn't convenient for you. Next time, I shall make every attempt to accommodate to your preferences. Please, accept my apologies." And then put down your stone on Tengen.

What's definitely impolite is playing silly moves you know to be bad when your opponent expects a serious game.

If you don't think your opponent wants a serious game, then any move is fine. But if you're an amateur playing against a pro, this is probably not the case, so you should try to stay serious.

If you don't think your strategy is bad, then you shouldn't care if your opponent thinks it's polite or not. This is how shinfuseki was developed - people played novel moves like hoshi and tengen, even though their opponents thought they were bad and offensive. Turned out, the opponents were wrong. Now hoshi is a very popular move and nobody thinks it's impolite.

Unfortunately, unlike shinfuseki, playing tengen and invading four corners really is bad. So you don't have that excuse either.

I had a thread about someone playing somewhat similar against me once. (First move 33-invasion or sth. similar) Majority opinion on L19 seemed to be it is all fun and games as long as it is legal and I was the bad guy for complaining about it. Of course pulling things like that in a teaching game granted by a professional I wouldn't wonder if it takes a long time until this professional visits that particular go club/amateur tournament etc. again. But rude people don't care.

I have a hard time understanding all the fuss about the politeness of play. I come from cultures where that is kind of meaningless. If it wins, it is legit. There ARE games of Magic is just quit, granted, but at that point we're talking decks with cards that just screw with the very basic rules of the game in a major way such that nothing makes any bloody sense anymore, not just some offbeat strategy that attacks with the usual rules but at an unusual angle. In other words, stuff that is frankly impossible in Go.

Anything that makes things work that normally just kind of shouldn't, I celebrate. One of the most entertaining things in competitive games is watching or executing completely outrageous greed and getting away with it. And that guy's four space extensions had me in fits. Pure insanity.

Of course, it's a bit different in Go insofar that it is deterministic and a game of complete information and thus there are technically speaking strategies that are ultimately just correct. However, that assumes a near perfect or at least professional opponent. The guy from the Battousai lecture may have a strategy that is ultimately wrong - but he also reached 7d on Tygem, and the opponent pretty much needs to be a professional to consistently win against his style. So the question is, why on Earth wouldn't you play that way if it amuses you? It is strong until the opposition is professional, is entertaining as hell, and allows the opponent endless ways to hang himself. It's like a dream come true. Just conduct yourself in a civil, friendly manner. But on the table, there is and should not be any mercy.

Go is a cultural game so I think some players have come to expect a certain degree of ethics from their opponents. I don't personally mind how my opponent plays as long as they don't talk to me during play (unless it's for fun). I get distracted very easily when someone talks to me and quite flustered. I blame that on being very shy. Haven't played too many physical board games so I can't really be sure if some things would bother me more in a face to face match.

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Slava Ukraini!

I think it's a bit pointless to be upset over how your opponent plays and whether a strategy is "polite". Go is ultimately a game and anything within the rules and by the server should be allowed. Players have the freedom to be upset and avoid future games, but their opponents also have the freedom to not care.

I suggest that you try the strategy out and see if it's fun - it's really impossible to cater to everyone's tastes anyways (moves you think are normal may very well appear to be ridiculous overplays to certain opponents).

IIRC, Bat would not be impressed that you watched that video and decided you wanted to play like black. A video in which, slightly paraphrased, a relatively strong amateur plays four conventionally bad joseki choices hoping his tengen will offset them (his style). The professional player then dismantles him in a pretty unexciting way (unless you get really excited he played a not unobvious wedge).

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Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Well it's not particularly strong, so what you end up is "entertaining as hell (for yourself) and allows the opponent endless ways to hang himself". Still don't see how that can be considered impolite? You are saying "I don't care for an equal game, as long as it's more painful for you than it is for me". Sorry, not interested.

You cannot compare Magic to Go, because in Magic, building the deck is half the effort, and games are rather quick and casual. In Magic, you want to "stack the deck" quite literally, so all is fair game. A game of Go requires considerably more effort, and if that effort is not respected, then that is in poor taste.

I'm not saying you are an evil person if you do this, but I do share Bat's dislike of it.

My opinion is that politeness here is in the eye of the player.

If you think "hehe, this is a crap strategy, but it's annoying as hell - maybe I can win because my opponent gets so riled he messes up" I think it's clearly rude.

If you think "hmmm, not tried this before, I wonder if it might work" it's not rude.

Quite a few professionals have played 20 or so moves into a game as complete mirror go, relying on their judgement of when to break the mirror or how to exploit their opponent's break of the mirror. I don't recall any more than mild grumbles about it from other professionals.

I think it's no more rude than any hamete (which I happen to think are somewhat rude - playing a deliberately sub-optimal play in the hope your opponent doesn't know it as well as you do).

Sure, but I think that this comment is then meta-pointless, and now my comment...

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Occupy Babel!

Touche.

You will probably agree that objectivity is one of the crucial skills in playing go or any other pure skill game.

Opening in a sub-optimal way might seem rude because it`s a direct challenge to the opponent`s ability to maintain objectivity. All things being equal, they should win if they can stay rational. That, however, is a big "if". Is it really ideal that a go game be decided only by reason, knowledge and judgement? Or should we allow for human factors like pride and emotion? There are strongish computer programs now, and they certainly do not bring emotions to the table, but how many of you prefer playing with machines? Is it not true that pyschology adds an indispensible spice to games?

If you play a hamete then you are not being rude. You are making a calculated gamble: if the opponent answers correctly, you have to accept the situation that arises (and it's not true that all hamete are inferior if met properly); if the opponent answers incorrectly, you get an advantage. If the opponent feels insulted and answers incorrectly, then it shows that he or she has unjustified pride in their ability!

So it is with strange fuseki: stronger players are more confident in their ability, and so they are less likely to be shaken by offbeat openings. I`m probably not wrong to suspect that the weaker people are, the more they moan about surprises. It`s certainly been one of my own ugly shortcomings over the years.

Also, there is also the point that what seems weird today may become orthodox in time. Nobody is offended when you open with a 4-4 point, but 200 years ago it might have seen daring and challenging.

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I'm with topazg on the hamete-being-kind-of-rude front (think, 20 point trick play), though perilous joseki (two space high avalanche, mad taishas)that don't have a clear refutation I'd say is great (or fine).

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My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.