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| Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=685 |
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| Author: | logan [ Sat May 29, 2010 12:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
I'm looking for two joseki items. First, the longest joseki. Second, only josekis with 65-moves or greater. I don't care whether the josekis are out of date. I'm really hoping for a 100+ move joseki. The longest one that I have been able to find is 76-moves, stemming from the large avalanche.  Thank-you in advance. -Logan EDIT: Updated image file location. |
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| Author: | CarlJung [ Sat May 29, 2010 1:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
Why? |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Sat May 29, 2010 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
If that's joseki, why can't I find it in any pro game in my database? (GoGoD from Dec 2009) |
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Sat May 29, 2010 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
HermanHiddema wrote: If that's joseki, why can't I find it in any pro game in my database? (GoGoD from Dec 2009) Pros don't play joseki. They just play good moves. |
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| Author: | MountainGo [ Sat May 29, 2010 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
What a help you lot are.  Sorry, logan, I don't know of any, but I'll be interested to see if anyone does, just for the entertainment value if nothing else.p.s. This forum sorely lacks a graphic sticking-tongue-out smiley. |
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| Author: | oren [ Sat May 29, 2010 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
I am curious what the source of that "joseki" is. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat May 29, 2010 6:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
I doubt if there are any actual joseki 65 moves long. I once played a very long joseki, and I seemed to recall that it was 45 moves long, but I haven't found it. I did find this joseki, however. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Sat May 29, 2010 7:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
@logan, Pros never play your 40 according to my database, instead always playing at 54. I'm actually interested in the answer to this question, too. I'm working on something involving joseki and I've assumed that none go longer than 50 moves. This actually gets quite close to that maximum (pros agree on a further 9 moves after 39 above, just not the ones logan shows). |
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| Author: | gaius [ Mon May 31, 2010 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
Well, I'm sure there are plenty of 50+ move variations on all kinds of difficult joseki. For example, you could try searching the Onadare, the Taisha, the magic sword, the 3-4 point low approach low 3-space pincer has a very difficult variation, etcetera. All you have to do is browse Kogo's a little (and that dictionary isn't even very complete). But. What is the point? First, I cannot memorise these things anyways. Second, even if I would memorise something I'd be afraid I memorised it wrong so I have to read anyway. Third, there's no way my opponent plays the variation I memorised anyway. Fourth, I don't even know a lot of the basic joseki... So until I am 6-dan and want to prepare some tricky variation for use in the Dutch Championship, I'll stick with the Ishida. More than difficult enough for me  .Oh, and train your tesuji and tsumego skills, then you can invent cool josekis yourself. It's way more fun! But be prepared to spend more than half your thinking time on one joseki  .
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Mon May 31, 2010 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
For my purposes, it only counts as a joseki if more than one pro has actually played it in a game. |
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| Author: | zecv [ Mon May 31, 2010 6:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
For my purposes, it only counts as a joseki if it is good for me. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Mon May 31, 2010 8:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
zecv wrote: For my purposes, it only counts as a joseki if it is good for me. Doesn't that mean that your opponent made a mistake? 
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| Author: | gowan [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
daniel_the_smith wrote: For my purposes, it only counts as a joseki if more than one pro has actually played it in a game. Plenty of pros play moves that aren't joseki and are criticized for it. You can't go by what has been played in pro games a few times. Whether a move sequence is "joseki" or not is not an absolute thing but depends on the general judgement of pros and changes according to fashion and the discovery of new moves. That's why you can't trust dictionaries too much. Something might be considered joseki when the dictionary was written but then professional opinion changes a few years later. Of course, many "non-joseki" moves only lose a couple of points, which would be fatal for a pro but not for most amateurs. However, consider losing, say, three points per joseki "mistake" several times during a game. That could add up to over ten points difference, something that could fall within the range of a game changing mistake for amateurs. And, by the way, too many people use the word joseki for any sequence of moves, ignoring the real meaning of the term as a sequence of moves generally considered (by pros) to give an equal local result. |
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
gowan wrote: [...] ignoring the real meaning of the term as a sequence of moves generally considered (by pros) to give an equal local result. The "equal local result" part is misleading (I would even question whether there is such a thing as a "local result"). "Joseki" just means "fixed stones", in other words, a known sequence that is under fitting circumstances playable by both players. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
Harleqin wrote: gowan wrote: [...] ignoring the real meaning of the term as a sequence of moves generally considered (by pros) to give an equal local result. The "equal local result" part is misleading (I would even question whether there is such a thing as a "local result"). "Joseki" just means "fixed stones", in other words, a known sequence that is under fitting circumstances playable by both players. Not only that, but joseki as a term has much wider meaning than just Go. It's meaning is closer to "routine sequence" as I understand it. |
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| Author: | kirkmc [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
gowan wrote: And, by the way, too many people use the word joseki for any sequence of moves, ignoring the real meaning of the term as a sequence of moves generally considered (by pros) to give an equal local result. Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with that. In corner josekis, the results would generally be equal on an empty board, but when one takes into account other stones, one side should end up better off. As for invasion and reduction josekis, they are more patterns, and I don't think the idea of equal result comes into it. |
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| Author: | CarlJung [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
kirkmc wrote: gowan wrote: And, by the way, too many people use the word joseki for any sequence of moves, ignoring the real meaning of the term as a sequence of moves generally considered (by pros) to give an equal local result. In corner josekis, the results would generally be equal on an empty board, but when one takes into account other stones, one side should end up better off. Hmm.. for this to be true, doesn't it imply that as soon as one corner is played, the game is decided, assuming perfect play. I.e. if one reasonable joseki has been played in the first corner, the second joseki (chosen with regard to the first) will inevitably result in one player ahead? It just doesn't feel right. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
CarlJung wrote: Hmm.. for this to be true, doesn't it imply that as soon as one corner is played, the game is decided, assuming perfect play. I.e. if one reasonable joseki has been played in the first corner, the second joseki (chosen with regards to the first) will inevitably result in one player ahead? It just doesn't feel right. And this is why pros don't play out corner josekis before going to another corner. Everything is a race to get moves in each corner better for them than the opponent, and at the end of the fuseki the point is that the game is close to even. Of course, it isn't quite true either. In reality, some josekis are definitely bad for one side, but they are intended with supporting stones, or a successful ladder, or a number of global considerations that can make them at least equal or better. If Go was any easier than this, would all be high dans 
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| Author: | gowan [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
Of course joseki depend on the over-all board position. In that sense all joseki are "situational joseki". But there is an accepted sense in which joseki, as we see them in dictionaries like Ishida's or the book Jungsuk in Our Time are "sequences of rational moves and giving an equal or near equal result" (Ishida) or "if we follow jungsuk we should at least end up with a balanced result" (Jungsuk). I was protesting the use by many amateurs of the term "joseki" to describe any arbitrary sequence of moves. For a sequence to be termed joseki it has to be recognized (Ishida's word) as such by the pro community. Of course new joseki are introduced all the time and sequences that were once regarded as joseki are abandoned because of new thinking. Pros are humans and subject to the imperfection that implies. Bringing perfect play into the discussion is fruitless because the game is over before it starts. Human judgement is part of the determination of whether a sequence is joseki or not. It is an interesting study to see how joseki evolve over time. It reflects the go community's concept of the game. Just as with many words, technical go words may also have general use e.g. nerai, aji, kakari, atsui, etc. Topazg's mention of joseki in general use probably evolved from its go use and has no effect on the use of the term in go. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Longest Joseki(s)? Any with 100+ moves? |
gowan wrote: Plenty of pros play moves that aren't joseki and are criticized for it. You can't go by what has been played in pro games a few times. How many times do you think pros have to play a sequence before we can be reasonably certain it's joseki? |
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