Life In 19x19 :: connection/separation problems

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connection/separation problems http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=798	Page 1 of 1

Author:	entropi [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:01 am ]
Post subject:	connection/separation problems
According to Kageyama (and common sense as well), connecting your stones is much more efficient than making life with two eyes. Then why are there more Life/Death problems than Connect/Separate problems? In Gokyo Shumyo there is a section about connection problems but small and some problems too difficult. Is there a good problem book about this topic?

Author:	Tryphon [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
There are problems about this subject in "Tesuji" from James Davies (and even a complete chapter), "Making good shape", and most Tesujis problems books (501 Tesuji or Get Strong at Tesuji, IIRC).

Author:	Phelan [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
I remember Graded Go Problems for beginners having some, as well as Tesuji.

Author:	freegame [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
opening problems teach you to avoid to many groups on the board. or in other words connect things together, or avoid the need for connecting thing together by creating stable groups. real connection problems can sometimes be found in tesuji or shape tsumego's.

Author:	gaius [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
Connecting your weak groups and cutting your opponents groups is a very important part of go, strategically. Kageyama is absolutely right in emphasising this aspect in his Fundamentals. The reason that there are relatively few problems on this is that it tends to be a lot easier than tsumego. Everybody knows how to cut a keima, you just push and cut, easy enough. In contrast, killing a random corner group can be tricky, and if you play the wrong move it can easily make 100 points instant difference. That being said, there are of course positions where it is more unclear whether or not you can cut/connect. If you want to learn more about them, Tesuji by Davies is highly recommended.

Author:	entropi [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
Indeed, there are two chapters in Davies book about this topic. But too few problems (maybe 30-40). The problem with the mixed tesuji books is that they don't allow to concentrate on one particular topic. I agree that mixed books provide a better "overall tsumego training" but if you want to learn more about one specific topic like that, you have to classify the problems yourself before starting to solve them. That's the reason why I would like to have a problem book particularly on that topic. From some of my recent games, I had the impression that this is one of my weakest points to see whether groups can be connected or not (my other weak points being life&death, sense of shape, joseki, opening, middlegame, endgame, close range fighting, deep reading, wide reading, ko fighting and positional judgement ). On the other hand, it is right that such problems tend to be easier but they can be provided as "status problems". Are these groups connected or not, or at which cost (letting an opponent group live, leaving bad aji, putting your own group into danger by a ko, etc...) can you connect them?

Author:	Magicwand [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
one tip... if you fill dame and connect two group..you are playing it wrong. it is like you lose your turn. every move you make should have multi purpose. one purpose of connecting two group is not what you want in a game. that is why there isn't any connection problem.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
gaius wrote: The reason that there are relatively few problems on this is that it tends to be a lot easier than tsumego. Everybody knows how to cut a keima, you just push and cut, easy enough. That's why we have the go proverb: Quote: Push and cut a keima. NOT!

Author:	dfan [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
There's also The Art of Connecting Stones, which I remember being above my level the last time I looked at it. IIRC it also had horribly ugly bitmap diagrams

Author:	Bartleby [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
The Art of Go Series Volume 1 - Connecting Stones published by Yutopian has approximately 160 problems on connecting stones. The problems range from pretty easy to really difficult. I would guess that anyone worked their way through the whole book would be pretty strong at connecting, but many of the problems seem to be dan-level. Volume 3 of Lee Chang Ho's 6-volume Tesuji series in Chinese starts with 28 problems on connecting groups and 57 problems on splitting groups. Rescue And Capture by Yang Yilun (also published by Yutopian) starts with 40 connection problems, and ends with 40 capturing problems. A number of the capturing problems involve a weak group in the corner or on the side capturing stones to connect out, so they could also be called connection problems. I don't have time to check my whole library right now, but these are a few of the books that spring to mind.

Author:	tchan001 [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
Yutopian used to sell a book called The Art of Connecting Stones, but unfortunately it seems to be out of print now. You can check out the entry at SL to see what it talked about. Maybe some members here might be willing to sell you a used copy. http://senseis.xmp.net/?TheArtOfConnectingStones I can't really think of any other go book translated into English which covers the subject of connection/separation. I think you'd need to look for an Asian language problem book if you want something in print.

Author:	gaius [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
Bill Spight wrote: gaius wrote: The reason that there are relatively few problems on this is that it tends to be a lot easier than tsumego. Everybody knows how to cut a keima, you just push and cut, easy enough. That's why we have the go proverb: Quote: Push and cut a keima. NOT! Of course the timing is far from trivial and requires deep consideration! But once you decide to cut a keima, there usually is only one way (maybe two, but for sure no more). But when you decide to begin a ko in a carpenter's square you have some reading to do

Author:	Harleqin [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
gaius wrote: Bill Spight wrote: gaius wrote: The reason that there are relatively few problems on this is that it tends to be a lot easier than tsumego. Everybody knows how to cut a keima, you just push and cut, easy enough. That's why we have the go proverb: Quote: Push and cut a keima. NOT! Of course the timing is far from trivial and requires deep consideration! But once you decide to cut a keima, there usually is only one way (maybe two, but for sure no more). But when you decide to begin a ko in a carpenter's square you have some reading to do Perhaps you see what Bill's objection was when I tell you the real proverb is "strike at the waist of the keima."

Author:	Dante31 [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
You can find used copies of: 'The Art of Connecting Stones' on amazon.com

Author:	Bill Spight [ Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
gaius wrote: Bill Spight wrote: gaius wrote: The reason that there are relatively few problems on this is that it tends to be a lot easier than tsumego. Everybody knows how to cut a keima, you just push and cut, easy enough. That's why we have the go proverb: Quote: Push and cut a keima. NOT! Of course the timing is far from trivial and requires deep consideration! But once you decide to cut a keima, there usually is only one way (maybe two, but for sure no more). But when you decide to begin a ko in a carpenter's square you have some reading to do gaius, I apologize for the tone of my note. But frankly I was greatly surprised to find a player of your caliber saying that pushing and cutting a keima is obvious.

Author:	entropi [ Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
Thanks to everybody, especially for the tip of "the art of connecting stones". I will try to find it. But I am a little bit puzzled by the keima discussion. Pushing through the keima may be against the proverb and may in most cases end up in complex situation but it in fact is a way of cutting the keima, isn't it? And in some cases even the only way. That's what I understood from gaius' post. He doesn't say it's the best way but it is obviously one of the ways of cutting. Or am I missing an important point here?

Author: Harleqin [ Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:20 am ]

Post subject: Re: connection/separation problems

The point is that after your cut, you want this shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Diagram 1: Good shape $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . B O . . $$ . . O O B . . $$ . . . . B . . $$ . . . . . . .[/go]

instead of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Diagram 2: Bad shape $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . B O O . . $$ . . O B . . . $$ . . . . B . . $$ . . . . . . .[/go]

So, the good cuts are this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Diagram 3: Strike at the waist $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . 1 O . . $$ . . O 2 3 . . $$ . . . . X . . $$ . . . . . . .[/go]

and this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Diagram 4: Push and cut $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . 3 2 O . . $$ . . O 1 . . . $$ . . . X . . . $$ . . . . . . .[/go]

Note the different positions of the initial black stone.

Now, in Diagram 4, you do not need much convincing that the alternative cut is inferior:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Diagram 5: Horrible shape $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . 1 O . . $$ . . O 2 3 . . $$ . . . X . . . $$ . . . . . . .[/go]

However, in Diagram 3, weaker players might think that the alternative cut, resulting in Diagram 2, might be good. That is where a proverb is warranted.

Author:	gaius [ Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
Harleqin, that was exactly what I was (overly simplistically) trying to say. Nice explanation

Author:	entropi [ Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: connection/separetion problems
Thanks for the explanation Harleqin. But to be honest, this is one of the proverbs I have never fully understood and still do not understand the need for such a proverb (even after your nice explanation). For two reasons: 1) How is "waist" defined? Keima has two points that could be identified as "waist" and it is anyway more than obvious that you cannot cut anywhere else other than those two points. Which one is waist? 2) Why would anyone, even a weak player, try to cut like in Diagram 5? It is very much intuitive to push and cut if you have a black stone there at the initial position. Maybe the proverb should be something like "don't cut keima with a kosumi, but strike at the other waist". Anyway, I accept, this is just a proverb and one should not expect too much from it

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