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| "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 seconds" http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8098 |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 seconds" |
What exactly does this mean? Repeat them until you can say within 10 seconds, "I remember this puzzle from this book, and I remember that the answer is X." OR Repeat them until you can say within 10 seconds, "This layout of stones looks familiar. I think the answer is X / The answer is usually X / My instinct is that the answer is X." OR Repeat them until you can say, "I think the answer is X, and in 10 seconds I can read every variation to prove it." |
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| Author: | Ortho [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
I think none of those but am having trouble articulating what I think. The last one is closest but I think something more like "I can read far enough in 10 seconds to know the answer is x because I can get to the point in 10 seconds of reading where I don't need to read further becuase I know where all the variations lead."  Once you reduce something to a known outcome, you don't need to read the rest of the way to the end of that outcome just for completeness. |
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| Author: | billywoods [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
PeterPeter wrote: What exactly does this mean? I've never heard it. What do you think is most useful? What skills are you training when you do tsumegos? What does "solved" mean to you, when you bear in mind its effect on your game? Answers to these questions will probably tell you what's best for you. People have different attitudes towards tsumego. I have a very strict attitude towards them, but then again I hate them. |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
billywoods wrote: I've never heard it. It was said here (viewtopic.php?p=132484#p132484), but I have also seen it different places (can't exactly remember where). billywoods wrote: What do you think is most useful? What skills are you training when you do tsumegos? What does "solved" mean to you, when you bear in mind its effect on your game? I am hoping to develop my pattern recognition, that I gather is important to becoming stronger. When a strong player 'sees' the solution, is that based on precise memory, well-developed instinct, or lightning-fast reading? Do they even know themselves? |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
http://senseis.xmp.net/?BenjaminTeuber% ... meStrong#2 "how to do tsumego". Benjamin Teuber wrote that guide while studying as an insei in Japan, the whole thing is a good read. |
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| Author: | jts [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
1. Difficulty Don't study primarily with tsumego that are too hard for you. Focus on problems that you can solve within a few minutes, and continue to practice with that set until you can solve them on sight (i.e., within 10s). 2. Don't memorize If you are picking up details like page numbers, neighboring problems, the orientation of the corner, and decorative stones on the outside, and are memorizing these rather than getting good at reading corner sequences, a lot of your effort is wasted. To prevent flat-out memorization, go from problem-book to problem-book; rotate problem books to a different orientation the second time you do them; go through the pages in a different order; etc. I tend to agree with these, although I'm sure there are some people who don't. But possibly you've put the two pieces of advice together in an odd way? Never mind, I misread the first post. I thought you meant those were three versions of this advice you had heard. |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
PeterPeter wrote: billywoods wrote: I've never heard it. It was said here (http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 84#p132484), but I have also seen it different places (can't exactly remember where). billywoods wrote: What do you think is most useful? What skills are you training when you do tsumegos? What does "solved" mean to you, when you bear in mind its effect on your game? I am hoping to develop my pattern recognition, that I gather is important to becoming stronger. When a strong player 'sees' the solution, is that based on precise memory, well-developed instinct, or lightning-fast reading? Do they even know themselves? I'd say it's mostly based on instinct and fast reading. Although in some cases memory would do it. I find that I remember corner shapes with annoying aji such as kos very well. And I think it is a combination of choice 2-3. My instinct says it is x(this should happen within a few seconds), and I have read out within 10 seconds all relevant branches that could refute my instinct. |
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| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
I don't have some sort of explanation for the ten seconds and I guess it is not meant as a strict rule. My interpretation is that you just know the correct answer in under ten seconds, you will either see it immediately or you will quickly glance over the important variations to come up with the answer. For me it loosly leads to an appreciation when you can consider a problem as really "solved". In my opinion it corresponds closely with the phrase: In a real game you are only able to solve problems you can solve on sight (~~under ten seconds) in a problem book. Both phrases are not true per se but I think they help with studying Tsumegos, because you have a rule-of-thumb when you can take on the next harder book. An example: This problem is a very elemental one. I can solve it under ten seconds because I know there are just two sensible candidate moves in this shape. In real games I will always (hopefully : D) live when facing this Life-and-Death situation. This problem is a lot harder for me, compared to the first one. Although the answer is pretty straight forward, I need some time to verify it. Under ten seconds is still possible but in a real game I would need considerable more focus to assess the status of White's group compared to the status of Black's group in the above problem. My best guess is that this is not a "shape problem". Last but not least: This one I could not solve in under ten seconds and in a real game I would have never questioned the status of White's group. Although White is undoubtably dead when Black plays correctly. For me this means I have to study problems like number two and three a lot more whereas number one problems are sufficiently internalized. |
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| Author: | billywoods [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
PeterPeter wrote: When a strong player 'sees' the solution, is that based on precise memory, well-developed instinct, or lightning-fast reading? Do they even know themselves? Almost certainly little bits of everything. A strong player has probably seen simple shapes many times over, has a good eye for vital points, can spot when a branch is doomed to failure very quickly, and - at worst - can read deeply, quickly and accurately in completely new and bizarre situations. |
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| Author: | billywoods [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
SoDesuNe wrote: in a real game I would have never questioned the status of White's group I always question the status of my opponent's groups.  I'm surprised - I spotted this one instantly (and verified it in 2-3 seconds). Just goes to show that reading ability and go strength aren't quite as correlated as you'd imagine.
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| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
billywoods wrote: SoDesuNe wrote: in a real game I would have never questioned the status of White's group I always question the status of my opponent's groups. ;) I'm surprised - I spotted this one instantly (and verified it in 2-3 seconds). Just goes to show that reading ability and go strength aren't quite as correlated as you'd imagine. Ha ha ha, maybe it's just me ; ) I stumbled across this problem a few days ago and it took me quite some time before the coin dropped. The main reason was that I always read the wrong move order. But yeah, regarding status of enemy groups: I'm way too lazy to do that unless I need the kill to win. Otherwise I'm happy to win with 0.5 =D |
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| Author: | Unusedname [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
To expand Quote: Last but not least: This one I could not solve in under ten seconds and in a real game I would have never questioned the status of White's group. Although White is undoubtably dead when Black plays correctly. For me this means I have to study problems like number two and three a lot more whereas number one problems are sufficiently internalized. There was a point where not only I can't do this in 10 seconds, I wouldn't even know where to start. So a problem like this would take me like 15 minutes because i'd have to try every variation to get the answer. But when you can solve problems like this in 10 seconds it means you are ready for the next level of problem. Though, I disagree with the sentiment of abandoning problems you can solve in 10 seconds. I believe in the idea of having a set of problems you can solve in 10 seconds and a set of problems that you can solve in 5 minutes. The 10 second problems increase your reading speed. The 5 minute problems increase your reading depth and width(?) breadth(?) jts wrote: 2. Don't memorize If you are picking up details like page numbers, neighboring problems, the orientation of the corner, and decorative stones on the outside, and are memorizing these rather than getting good at reading corner sequences, a lot of your effort is wasted. To prevent flat-out memorization, go from problem-book to problem-book; rotate problem books to a different orientation the second time you do them; go through the pages in a different order; etc. even though this was crossed out in his post, It's still good advice when you reuse tsumego. |
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| Author: | gowan [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
Most life-and-death problems you run into as a beginner fit into patterns. By doing thousands of problems you learn the common shapes and then, when you encounter a problem you don't recognise you have a repertory of "target" shapes you can try to create. That's the point of that 10 second (or 30 second) dictum. That's also to point of the idea that you should work on problems around your level (plus or minus) because doing advanced problems won't teach you any shapes and ones that are too easy won't teach you anything new. As for pros, they know the shapes so they can play very fast, as in a 10 game simultaneous exhibition. But they also can read very fast, too. I spoke to a strong pro about this at a go congress and he said he just looks at the board and sees the moves flow onto the board as if he were watching a movie but speeded way up. I think this is also a matter of shape recognition. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
There are a lot of amateur go proverbs out there, and this is one of them. That is not to say that it is wrong, but, just as you cannot accept a go proverb that has been around for centuries without question, you have to question this one, too. One of my bridge partners told me that I saw things quicker than anyone else she knew. That surprised me, as I had never trained for speed. There are people who swear by rapid drills. I have never tried them. For me, you know what you know, you see what you see. And you miss what you miss. I do believe in learning something thoroughly, and seem to be the only one who talks about such things as setting up a tsumego from memory. (If you don't know where the key stones are, how can you say that you know the problem? Thoroughly, that is.  )One possible problem with repeating tsumego until you can solve them quickly is that you may be recognizing a problem by a few features, without noticing all the key features. (If you know the key features, you can set up the problem or its equivalent from memory, no?) And then when you see the features on the board, you may think you know the position when you do not. I have seen it happen. Overlearning is very important. And it does produce speed. If it takes you ten tries to solve a problem, solve it five more times. I did find something I wrote along these lines here. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1661&p=32033&hilit=overlearn#p32033 See also http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoProblemsTheFudgeFactor
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "Do tsumegos until you can solve them in under 10 second |
When I see an easy problem, there's often no real distinction between seeing the first move and "reading out" the problem. It all just comes to my head instantly. I think this ability comes to most people as they get stronger, and I think it's this level of familiarity that is being encouraged by the proverb. I think it's important to not focus on one particular tsumego in order to achieve this, but instead just do a whole lot of tsumego. Eventually the easier ones will become automatic. |
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