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Rengo tournament discussion
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=844		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Chew Terr [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Rengo tournament discussion
I've been thinking that it would be fun to have a KGS L19 rengo tournament. Between the Kuchinashi and the Title Tournament, everybody is too busy for us to add another. However, once the Kuchinashi ends, perhaps we can set up a rengo one.

So two questions:
1) Who's interested?
2) What rules and setup would be interesting? I was originally thinking that it would be nice if we pair stronger players with weaker ones, so that everybody can play with a fairly equal playing field. As far as I can see, there are two ways to handle this. Either we can have the TD (me?) pick teams based just on rank, to keep things as even as possible, or we can let people pick their own teams (more fun?) and just put constraints on the teams. Topazg suggested to me that we could just require a certain difference in rank between teammates and require that the average level of the team not go above a certain bar.

What do ya'all think? Anybody interested? Would you rather pick your own partners? Would 5 ranks apart and a 3k maximum average be fair, or do you have a better suggestion for constraints? Or would it be easier if teams were picked for you?
Author:  Redundant [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
I'd be interested, but I'm not sure I like the system of having a mandated difference in rank and a max rank average.

For example. Your proposal of a 5 rank difference and 3k average means that I would need to find someone 9k or weaker as a partner. On the other hand, a 6k and 1k could pair up. If you look at the averages, my team would average at least 6.5k while a 6k and 1k would average 3.5k.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
Makes sense. Have a more fair suggestion? It seems to me like two 5k players do much better than a dan player and a 10k would. So I think any agreement we come to should take that into accout.
Author:  Redundant [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
Chew Terr wrote:
Makes sense. Have a more fair suggestion? It seems to me like two 5k players do much better than a dan player and a 10k would. So I think any agreement we come to should take that into accout.


Maybe we could do a weighted average, where the weaker player gets more weight the further they are from the cutoff?
Author:  runaway [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
it sounds like fun!

To me, the weighted average is the only solution.

The ranks in L19 are mostly in the range of 8k-2dan, so I highly doubt that there's going to be too much of a hassle.

That being said, I will now counter my argument with an enigma:
I think 8kyus are at the stage where you would need a 5dan for rengo due to the many silly mistakes I see when I face them. Unless if we have a limit to joseki choice or a maximum # of weak groups during games against 8 kyus, but that's silly and uninteresting.

Best way I can think of is asking 5dans on KGS to help out, or increase/decrease the komi.

I would also suggest pairing fast players with slow players.
Author:  Phelan [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
Why not just use a fixed average, and a minimum rank distance? That's the way the rengo tournament at the 2009 EGC was played, if I remember correctly.
Author:  kokomi [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
i'm in!

It's not easy to fix both. fix one of them is ok. And maximum bar doesn't really make sense. If you put it as 3k, then a 5D will need to find someone...bad at calculation...13k? or i misunderstand the maximum rule?
Author:  Redundant [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
The problem with setting a minimum rank difference and a maximum average rank is for people slightly weaker than the rank average. They need to find someone at least five stones weaker than they are in order to satisfy both requirements, while someone a bit further away from the maximum average can still find someone stronger with which to satisfy both requirements. This can lead to a rather large difference in rank average between these two possibilities.
Author:  Jordus [ Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
Sounds fun... Id play too...
Author:  Chew Terr [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
Perhaps if we looked at it this way. We pick a threshold number, like 8. Then, each team's number is their average score (in kyus, with dan as negative kyus) plus half of the difference in rank between the players. That way, if a 5d and an 8k wanted to play, their number would be 8 (2+(12)/2). There is no 0k, which affects averaging and differences. As long as that team's number is equal to or greater than the threshold number, they're allowed.

What thoughts on this system? Is this too large an encouragement for wide rank differences? I really just want to be sure that everyone gets to play and that teams are not necessarily crippled by having one weaker player. It does seem to me like rengo teams are worse than the average rank, increasingly so if the rank gap is large. If anyone has a better/different way to balance this, I'd love to hear it.
Author:  judicata [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
Being a 10kyu, this might seem self-interested. But my suggestion is that we do our best to make the teams "fair" while keeping in mind that this is Rengo, which is inevitably a little crazy.
Author:  Redundant [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
How about instead of any mathematical system, we just appoint someone we trust to be the "man". We can set some guidelines for the types of teams we'd like, and if any team seems unfair, that person can make a decision. If the judge can maintain impartiality, I'd think this to be the fairest system.
Author:  Hagios [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rengo tournament discussion
I'm in! :D
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