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| What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8503 |
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| Author: | Tami [ Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
It really is time there was a viable, fun alternative to KGS. KGS is a wonderful place in many ways, but sometimes it feels like there is nowhere else where it`s fun to play go online. I`m not going to list the things with which I`m dissatisfied, because they will never be changed. However, it would be great to have the choice to play somewhere different, but without giving up the things that I like very much about KGS. IGS is old and clunky, and it`s pretty expensive for those of us based in Japan. Tygem and Oro have shaky, flaky clients that are unpleasant to use in English. For a time, it looked like Kaya.gs would become a worthy rival, but recently it has not so much slowed down as completely and utterly halted. I really wanted to see it succeed. Nova.gs looks very promising indeed, but it needs to get people logged on and playing on it - and fast! I keep logging on, only to find nobody is available for a game. The point is that we can`t just wait for developers to make servers for us, but we also have to support them by using the servers. Kaya can still be revived, and Nova can snowball into something new and exciting, but it is in our hands. Therefore, I`m going to keep logging onto Kaya and Nova, and I`m asking here that you do the same, if you want to have more choice and control (e.g., don`t like KGS`s escaper policy? Try Kaya! Don`t like Nova`s escape policy? Use KGS!). There will never be a go server that is all things to all people, but rather than grumble about the existing ones we can make active efforts to build a userbase when a new one appears. |
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| Author: | Bantari [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
Hi Tami, How about some concrete ideas about what KGS is lacking and what the developers of new servers should concentrate on? PS> Edited by me, after I saw the error of my ways. With apologies. |
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| Author: | SpongeBob [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
For me, the alternative to KGS is already existing: Tygem. The client might not be pretty, but regarding all the things that matter for playing, it is great: adequate escaper policy, no-lag-client, voice countdown, very good score estimator, tons of active users on multiple servers, option to play with or without undo. Regarding kaya, I have lost all hopes. Nova seems great for correspondence games but has no time controls for real time games yet. As soon as those get implemented, I surely will try it out. Until then ... I enjoy Tygem! |
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| Author: | witwit [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
SpongeBob wrote: Regarding kaya, I have lost all hopes. Nova seems great for correspondence games but has no time controls for real time games yet. As soon as those get implemented, I surely will try it out. Nova already has time controls for live games! The interface is very flexible and updates in real time so it works just as nicely for live games. I agree wholeheartedly with OP and personally nova looks to me like it could be great once it starts to gain in popularity. |
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| Author: | wineandgolover [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
SpongeBob wrote: For me, the alternative to KGS is already existing: Tygem. No Mac client = nogo for me.
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| Author: | SpongeBob [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
witwit wrote: Nova already has time controls for live games! The interface is very flexible and updates in real time so it works just as nicely for live games. It does not have japanese byo-yomi. It does have canadian and fisher instead, and for those time systems, you cannot choose the main thinking time - it is set to a value given by the system. There is a time system called 'Simple', which is japanese byo-yomi but with no main thinking time at all. (At first I assumed that there is no main thinking time for all time sytems, because you can only choose the overtime setting.) For live games, this is not sufficient - you have to be able to set the main thinking time. Also, japanese byo-yomi is a must. |
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| Author: | dfunkt [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
SpongeBob wrote: witwit wrote: Nova already has time controls for live games! The interface is very flexible and updates in real time so it works just as nicely for live games. It does not have japanese byo-yomi. It does have canadian and fisher instead, and for those time systems, you cannot choose the main thinking time - it is set to a value given by the system. There is a time system called 'Simple', which is japanese byo-yomi but with no main thinking time at all. (At first I assumed that there is no main thinking time for all time sytems, because you can only choose the overtime setting.) For live games, this is not sufficient - you have to be able to set the main thinking time. Also, japanese byo-yomi is a must. I believe that the Japanese time system is on the list of future updates to Nova and also customized main time. When the devs at Nova say they are going to do something they actually do it. It's wonderful to see active development, something which is missing from the other servers. |
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| Author: | oren [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
I like KGS for socializing, demos, and teaching. I also often use wbaduk (cyberoro) for games since I like the quick automatch, voice countdown, and prefer it over Tygem since it has a better Android app now. KGS with good voice countdown and enough players in automatch would be great for me. |
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| Author: | cdybeijing [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
oren wrote: I like KGS for socializing, demos, and teaching. I also often use wbaduk (cyberoro) for games since I like the quick automatch, voice countdown, and prefer it over Tygem since it has a better Android app now. KGS with good voice countdown and enough players in automatch would be great for me. Not to hijack the thread, but I also like Wbaduk quite a bit more than Tygem. Is Tygem or CyberOro more popular in Korea? I often get the impression that Tygem is the leader because it is connected to the main Chinese server Tom. |
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| Author: | oren [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
cdybeijing wrote: Not to hijack the thread, but I also like Wbaduk quite a bit more than Tygem. Is Tygem or CyberOro more popular in Korea? I often get the impression that Tygem is the leader because it is connected to the main Chinese server Tom. It seems by pure number of people Tygem is a bit more popular in Korea. In Japan, wbaduk/cyberoro is the server of Nihon Kiin and seems to get more people and advertising. I don't know much about Chinese players. |
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| Author: | illluck [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
oren wrote: cdybeijing wrote: Not to hijack the thread, but I also like Wbaduk quite a bit more than Tygem. Is Tygem or CyberOro more popular in Korea? I often get the impression that Tygem is the leader because it is connected to the main Chinese server Tom. It seems by pure number of people Tygem is a bit more popular in Korea. In Japan, wbaduk/cyberoro is the server of Nihon Kiin and seems to get more people and advertising. I don't know much about Chinese players. IIRC TOM has had its own client for a couple of years now. Most internet players in China use TOM and YiCheng (Tygem), with the latter probably more popular? |
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| Author: | cdybeijing [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
illluck wrote: oren wrote: cdybeijing wrote: Not to hijack the thread, but I also like Wbaduk quite a bit more than Tygem. Is Tygem or CyberOro more popular in Korea? I often get the impression that Tygem is the leader because it is connected to the main Chinese server Tom. It seems by pure number of people Tygem is a bit more popular in Korea. In Japan, wbaduk/cyberoro is the server of Nihon Kiin and seems to get more people and advertising. I don't know much about Chinese players. IIRC TOM has had its own client for a couple of years now. Most internet players in China use TOM and YiCheng (Tygem), with the latter probably more popular? Yes, YiCheng is integrated with Tygem, which would make that probably the biggest overall Asian host. From what you're saying, it seems that CyberOro/Wbaduk is heavily Korean and Japanese, and probably the second largest Asian host. There are several China servers on Oro/Wbaduk though, which makes me wonder where the Chinese players are connecting from. |
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| Author: | Tami [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
Rather than complaining about lacking features or missing ones, maybe it would be constructive to list things we like about different go servers. Here are my lists: Kaya - very pretty board and stones, karma, widgets with go videos, simple rating system complete with estimate of wins required to rank-up, malkovich, escapers have to return within a set time or lose, Fischer time, voiced countdown if you want it, video broadcasts Nova - good board and stones, drawing on board in review, night-play mode (I can`t believe nobody thought of it before!), simple rating system, malkovich, escapers must come back or lose, separate chat panes for spectators and players, tournaments and clubs KGS - avatars (but it would be 1000% better if you could hide creepy ones!), great review tools, attractive colour scheme, rooms, rengo, board sizes up to 38x38, easy-to-see in-game clocks and prisoner count If I were to build a server myself, then definitely * it would have a simple and fluid ranking system (lose a lot - go down temporarily! win a lot, get rewarded and see if you can stay up) * the escaper policy would be more victim-centred (i.e., admins would have the power to award wins by adjudication) * the English language would be labelled with a British flag * avatars would be hideable * there would be support for clubs and tournaments (including inter-club matches), * there`d be videos and lessons available on-demand * there`d be a full-screen mode without chat - just the board, stones and clocks * you could choose your colour-scheme * night-play mode to prevent eye strain * you`d have a private "note-pad" within your profile for keeping server-related records and notes (access could be disabled while a game is in progress). For instance, you might want to record a joseki or tesuji that interested you, or you might want to keep "secret files" on the playing styles of your favourite rivals. You might want to compile a "hit-list" of players you want to defeat as you grow stronger. Whatever you like! * win-loss statistics similar to the ones on KGS Analytics Probably, other people`s dream server would have very different features from the one I`ve just described, but of course there will never be a go server that makes everybody happy all the time. In fact, maybe even my own dream server would frustrate me some of the time. But, above all, if somebody does go to the trouble to build a new go server with a lot of features you like, don`t forget to use it! The more we support developers by choosing to test and use their efforts, the more they can support us by continuing to develop them. |
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| Author: | Jedo [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
SpongeBob wrote: For me, the alternative to KGS is already existing: Tygem. The client might not be pretty, but regarding all the things that matter for playing, it is great: adequate escaper policy, no-lag-client, voice countdown, very good score estimator, tons of active users on multiple servers, option to play with or without undo. I like playing on Tygem too, but I feel like it has some pretty big problems. For one, there's basically no social element at all, and most people leave games the instant they're over. Downloading games to review is a huge pain since they're not sgf. Most annoyingly IMO is that the review tools are garbage. On the other hand you can get a game pretty fast with whatever time settings you want, you can declare a rank from the start, and there is an actual escaper policy. |
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| Author: | sefo [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
So the answer is basically "We play where we like". The Go community will never unite to play on 1 server, even with all the new features in the world. (sadly) KGS is old school and western go players are used to it. They have all their games records (the GRAPH!), their "friends", their idols. They will never leave the server unless the server dies or until they fight with an admin or lose a game because of lag. TYGEM is popular because of Bat's lectures. Quick games with no socializing, no love for your own rank (no fear of losing) You cannot put all the good things in 1 server. Nova and Kaya will have to find a way to attract players, that's all. |
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| Author: | jts [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
People seem to be picking up that Kaya sucked mainly but not exclusively because KGS is already at the bare minimum size at which a healthy Go ecology is possible. You would think the logical step would be obvious, but no one seems to be drawing the right conclusion. How empty are thy boards... |
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| Author: | Tami [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
jts wrote: People seem to be picking up that Kaya sucked mainly but not exclusively because KGS is already at the bare minimum size at which a healthy Go ecology is possible. You would think the logical step would be obvious, but no one seems to be drawing the right conclusion. How empty are thy boards... Hold on there. It`s a bit harsh to say "kaya sucked". It has lots of great features and it is a very pleasant place to play go. Gabriel and Pato did try to deliver on their promises, and although, having donated money to them, I`m more than a bit disappointed to see the current situation, I would still love to see Kaya grow and flourish. For me, the lack of a way to decline games I do not want to play is a big turn-off (see the Kaya forum for more), but I`m still more than happy to play there when I can find a partner. But, I suppose it brings me full circle. I have criticised KGS quite a lot in the past, but I regret that now. WMS clearly put in a great deal of work, and appears to be working very hard on a new web client, and I`ve got a lot of pleasure out of KGS over the years, far more enjoyment than frustration. So, rather than criticising KGS, it seems better to support new servers when they appear. If one or two rivals can become established among Western users, then it`s better for everyone - more choice, more opponents. So that`s all I`ve been trying to say: don`t bash KGS, just accept it and enjoy it as it is, and if do you feel frustrated with it, use other servers that offer other features and other policies. You can`t complain about a userbase being small unless you`re willing to put some effort into being part of that userbase. |
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| Author: | BaronGossettEulerPhD [ Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
For more than 35 years I have been a fanatic Go player and a fanatic Backgammon player. At the end of the 20th century world class backgammon software was finally developed. These bots play as well as any human in the world. Backgammon servers became popular. There is also the issue of escapers on these servers. The escaper problem was solved in the following way: when the game is suspended, the players have about three weeks to complete the game. If they don't, the world class backgammon bot automatically and accurately adjudicates a winner (because of the dice, this is a probability of winning). Both player rankings are appropriately adjusted. Escaper problem solved. For Go on KGS, the developers cannot satisfactorily improve their website unless they are adequately paid for their efforts. Here is one way to generate income for the KGS developers. On KGS the ZEN19BS software plays better than the vast majority of players on the website. It currently uses KGS resources and could be compelled to run on a different computer to finish each game involving an escaper, playing both Black and White from the current position. The winner is determined and the game adjudicated. For all games on KGS where at least one player is a paid-up KGS Plus member, this adjudication by ZEN19BS would occur automatically before four weeks had passed. If the players resume and complete the suspended game before that time, no adjudication would take place. If neither player was a KGS Plus member, no adjudication would ever occur. Thus, if escapers annoy you, you can pay KGS to alleviate the annoyance. Pentimento: Perhaps at least 25 moves (or some other number) of the fuseki would be needed to label the suspended game as escaped. |
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| Author: | uPWarrior [ Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
I don't get why I could be playing a game, someone would leave and I would be labeled the loser. |
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| Author: | vpopovic [ Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What are we going to do? Nova or Kaya or what? |
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a programming skills? |
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