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Ever wondered ....
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Author:  NoSkill [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Ever wondered ....
Ever wondered if it could be possible to play go as good as a 9p but totally different? Like if in an alternate reality they came up with radically different joseki/fuseki or some other variance not seen in any go here, but had the 9p counting and reading.
Author:  wineandgolover [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
NoSkill wrote:
Ever wondered if it could be possible to play go as good as a 9p but totally different? Like if in an alternate reality they came up with radically different joseki/fuseki or some other variance not seen in any go here, but had the 9p counting and reading.
It has happened at least once (Shin Fuseki) in Japan. So why not again? The game is far from solved.
Author:  Toge [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
Well, there are professional 9p players with radically different playing styles. Compare Lee Sedol's play to Lee Changho's or Otake Hideo's.
Author:  SmoothOper [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
wineandgolover wrote:
NoSkill wrote:
Ever wondered if it could be possible to play go as good as a 9p but totally different? Like if in an alternate reality they came up with radically different joseki/fuseki or some other variance not seen in any go here, but had the 9p counting and reading.
It has happened at least once (Shin Fuseki) in Japan. So why not again? The game is far from solved.


I am actually kind of surprised that pro's games are as similar as they are to begin with.
Author:  Boidhre [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
SmoothOper wrote:
wineandgolover wrote:
NoSkill wrote:
Ever wondered if it could be possible to play go as good as a 9p but totally different? Like if in an alternate reality they came up with radically different joseki/fuseki or some other variance not seen in any go here, but had the 9p counting and reading.
It has happened at least once (Shin Fuseki) in Japan. So why not again? The game is far from solved.


I am actually kind of surprised that pro's games are as similar as they are to begin with.


Why? The recorded ones we see aren't played for fun. The fuseki experiments are not happening on the tournament boards but in the study groups. They make their way onto the tournament boards if they stand up the scrutiny for a while, new joseki moves and so on and even then it'll be for important games where the advantage of it being a new move counts for the most. It's similar in chess, the World Champion might play a new line in an established opening but it won't be in a throwaway game but when defending his title.
Author:  moyoaji [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
It depends on what you mean. If you think there could be a style of go that doesn't emphasize the classical corner-side-center pattern then I'm not so sure because, logically, the most urgent points on the board are the corners. Currently, most pros are convinced that either the 4-4 or the 3-4 is the best opening move. Period. However, some pros play differently.

Gan Siyan 4p plays 6-4s and other crazy openings all the time - and wins doing it. Here are some examples:

Double 6-4 opening as white, The WTF fuseki... (8-8, 8-4 opening)

9 dans play unusual openings too. O Meien 9p has played some more unconventional openings, like this 4-4, 6-4, 5-3 opening. His opponent in that game, Yamashita Keigo 9p, once played a 5-5, 5-4, 5-3, 6-4 opening against Takemiya Masaki 9p who himself is known for some of his unusual games against 9 dans.

You don't need to find an alternate reality to find unusual pro styles. Humans in our world are plenty crazy and unconventional already. ;-)
Author:  illluck [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
moyoaji wrote:
...logically, the most urgent points on the board are the corners. Currently, most pros are convinced that either the 4-4 or the 3-4 is the best opening move. Period.


Not true.
Author:  oren [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
illluck wrote:
moyoaji wrote:
...logically, the most urgent points on the board are the corners. Currently, most pros are convinced that either the 4-4 or the 3-4 is the best opening move. Period.


Not true.


Just curious, why do you think that is not true?
Author:  illluck [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
oren wrote:
illluck wrote:
moyoaji wrote:
...logically, the most urgent points on the board are the corners. Currently, most pros are convinced that either the 4-4 or the 3-4 is the best opening move. Period.


Not true.


Just curious, why do you think that is not true?


I would say more, but on ipad and typing is a bit of a pain. There is no logical argument in favour of the corners.

Edit: Other than the fact that they are better studied and the properties of the corner facilitates standard patterns.
Author:  oren [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
illluck wrote:
I would say more, but on ipad and typing is a bit of a pain. There is no logical argument in favour of the corners.

Edit: Other than the fact that they are better studied and the properties of the corner facilitates standard patterns.


Got it, you're not disagreeing with "Currently, most pros are convinced that either the 4-4 or the 3-4 is the best opening move". That does seem true.
Author:  macelee [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
The original question was not just about opening. There are indeed 9-dan players playing quite unique mid-game as well. One name coming to my mind is Miyazawa Goro 9-dan who plays a lot unconventional moves in mid-game. For example, have a look at this game (which I randomly selected from his game collection)

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/31938

See his move W14, W34, W42, W52 etc. Quite a lot surprises in his game.
Author:  paK0 [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
illluck wrote:

I would say more, but on ipad and typing is a bit of a pain. There is no logical argument in favour of the corners.

Edit: Other than the fact that they are better studied and the properties of the corner facilitates standard patterns.


Isn't the whole "You need less stones in the corner to surround territory" kind of an pro corner argument?
Author:  illluck [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
oren wrote:
illluck wrote:
I would say more, but on ipad and typing is a bit of a pain. There is no logical argument in favour of the corners.

Edit: Other than the fact that they are better studied and the properties of the corner facilitates standard patterns.


Got it, you're not disagreeing with "Currently, most pros are convinced that either the 4-4 or the 3-4 is the best opening move". That does seem true.


I'm not sure about that either. It's certainly true that they are the most dominant and preferred by most pros, but I'm wonder if they are convinced that those points are objectively optimal.
Author:  Boidhre [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
oren wrote:
illluck wrote:
I would say more, but on ipad and typing is a bit of a pain. There is no logical argument in favour of the corners.

Edit: Other than the fact that they are better studied and the properties of the corner facilitates standard patterns.


Got it, you're not disagreeing with "Currently, most pros are convinced that either the 4-4 or the 3-4 is the best opening move". That does seem true.


I've read some pro opinion, I think it was Yilun Yang but I may be wrong, that 4-4 and 3-4 are favoured not so much because they are best (comparing to 5-4 or 5-3) but because the flow of the following game is somewhat more predictable and he said that pros by their nature are very adverse to such unpredictability at the start of the game when there isn't a need to complicate yet.
Author:  illluck [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
paK0 wrote:
illluck wrote:

I would say more, but on ipad and typing is a bit of a pain. There is no logical argument in favour of the corners.

Edit: Other than the fact that they are better studied and the properties of the corner facilitates standard patterns.


Isn't the whole "You need less stones in the corner to surround territory" kind of an pro corner argument?


Yes, but the link between that and the urgency (which I interpret as interchangeable with optimality) is not necessarily rigorous. Near the beginning of the game there are other considerations than territory (otherwise sansan would be quite a bit more popular :) ).
Author:  macelee [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
macelee wrote:
The original question was not just about opening. There are indeed 9-dan players playing quite unique mid-game as well. One name coming to my mind is Miyazawa Goro 9-dan who plays a lot unconventional moves in mid-game. For example, have a look at this game (which I randomly selected from his game collection)

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/31938

See his move W14, W34, W42, W52 etc. Quite a lot surprises in his game.


The black move 23 in the following game is also highly unusual. We amateur will be laughed at if playing that way.

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/28349
Author:  oren [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
Boidhre wrote:
I've read some pro opinion, I think it was Yilun Yang but I may be wrong, that 4-4 and 3-4 are favoured not so much because they are best (comparing to 5-4 or 5-3) but because the flow of the following game is somewhat more predictable and he said that pros by their nature are very adverse to such unpredictability at the start of the game when there isn't a need to complicate yet.


Which I would say the predictability means most pros think it's the best. Predictability is a positive factor for them. :)
Author:  illluck [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
oren wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
I've read some pro opinion, I think it was Yilun Yang but I may be wrong, that 4-4 and 3-4 are favoured not so much because they are best (comparing to 5-4 or 5-3) but because the flow of the following game is somewhat more predictable and he said that pros by their nature are very adverse to such unpredictability at the start of the game when there isn't a need to complicate yet.


Which I would say the predictability means most pros think it's the best. Predictability is a positive factor for them. :)


This is why I made sure to use "objectively optimal" XD I knew this sort of comment would pop up :p It's true and indeed one interpretation of "best", but I suspect not the meaning intended by the initial comment as it then doesn't mean very much.
Author:  Boidhre [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
oren wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
I've read some pro opinion, I think it was Yilun Yang but I may be wrong, that 4-4 and 3-4 are favoured not so much because they are best (comparing to 5-4 or 5-3) but because the flow of the following game is somewhat more predictable and he said that pros by their nature are very adverse to such unpredictability at the start of the game when there isn't a need to complicate yet.


Which I would say the predictability means most pros think it's the best. Predictability is a positive factor for them. :)


Sure. What the author was trying to get across I think was just because pros forgo a certain move doesn't mean it's not perfectly playable (or that it's playable of course). It just might not be optimal when you make your living from the game. ;)
Author:  wineandgolover [ Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ever wondered ....
Someday tengen will be the concensus optimal first move, regardless of komi.

Prove that wrong.
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