Life In 19x19 :: Pisa tests - a template for go?

So if you ask me why the education system here seems to result in higher Pisa tests, it's probably because of the extraordinary competitiveness to get into the right school, the amount of money parents are willing to invest in the next generation to give them a head start on their competition, and the very high standards set by the elite institutions to weed out the multitudes of applicants.

I'd say it's discipline. Americans tend to be too distracted by social media and TV.

I totally agree with Kirby's explanation. Yesterday there was a BBC Radio 4 journalist visiting Korea and reported exactly the same situation - it is quite normal for high-school-age students to spend 14 hours a day studying. Same happen in many parts of China.

I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now.

Boidhre wrote:

I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now.

That's what I would say about the Finnish system, too. Apparently the tests don't agree with me (although Finland doesn't do as well in the tests as it used to do)

Boidhre wrote:

I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now.

That's what I would say about the Finnish system, too. Apparently the tests don't agree with me (although Finland doesn't do as well in the tests as it used to do)

Thats quite interesting, literally everytime someone brings up flaws in the German education-system the first answer given is always: Look how Finnland does it.

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:47 am ]
Post subject:	Pisa tests - a template for go?
Today's OECD report on Pisa tests - a global comparison of education systems for reading, maths and science for 15-year-olds around the world - puts all the oriental go playing countries in the top five. China is represented only by Shanghai and Hong Kong, but Japan, South Korea and Taiwan use a national criterion. Shanghai, in top place, had a score that was equivalent to three years schooling ahead of the OECD (i.e. rich countries') average. UK and USA were 26th and 36th. Finland was the top European country but Ireland and Switzerland did well - except that nobody really did well compared to the orientals. Does that tell us anything about why western go players find it so hard make headway in the pro scene? Yes, we have handicaps of late starts, low numbers and so on, but maybe the go education system here is flawed as well. Perhaps those such as macelee and tchan who know the education systems in Shanghai and Hong Kong could tell us what they think makes their systems perform better. I'm expecting to hear that it's mainly a cultural trait that emphasises education and hard work, but maybe there are different techniques as well?

Author:	RobertJasiek [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Pisa tests are like IQ tests: they measure what the tests measure. E.g., they measure only particular skills, education designed to produce good test results (but possibly not so useful otherwise), mainly 15 year old pupils and do not account well external factors, such as workaholic education. Have go classes at kindergarden and school from the age of 2, 4 hours per week, and surely Western countries will improve greatly at go. Maybe just because enough people learn about the game not to miss it accidentally, but the talents would not be overlooked. It would already be a revolution if pupils at school could choose between, e.g., arts, music, sports and mind sports.

Author:	tchan001 [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
I don't know about the educational scene in Shanghai, but in HK, parents are very competitive in trying to get their children into elite educational institutions. There are places which offer educational opportunities for children as young as 6 months old. Many children start off in playgroups. These playgroups are not your everyday playgroups with your friend's kids in your neighborhood, but rather institutional offerings. By the time they reach the age to apply to pre-nursery (apply at around 1-1/2 to 2 years old for schooling around 2 to 3 years old) they would get interviewed for places at many of the top pre-nursery schools. These interviews would probably expect the child to know the basic colors and shapes and to be able to behave politely. For one top pre-nursery, there were over 3,000 applicants for the first interview, then 600 were invited to the second interview and finally around 300 were offered a place. Then when the child is around 2 to 3 years old, another round of interviews for placement at kindergartens. All kindergartens in HK are currently private and again the top ones attract far more applicants than they can offer places. Basically if you don't get into the right kindergartens, your child will have a tough time getting into the top primary schools. And the right primary schools are the keys to getting into the right middle school/high school. Of course, there is another route which is the international school, but these are very costly. Just applying for an international school at the kindergarten level would cost you around HKD2000 (USD250+). One of our friends applied to such and was given a rejection letter after a few days with no refunds as to the application fee. If you are lucky and can get into such, you would probably need to pay for a debenture or school levy on top of your regular school fees. Then there are the supplementary activities and tutoring expected for the kids. So if you ask me why the education system here seems to result in higher Pisa tests, it's probably because of the extraordinary competitiveness to get into the right school, the amount of money parents are willing to invest in the next generation to give them a head start on their competition, and the very high standards set by the elite institutions to weed out the multitudes of applicants. However for HK in terms of go, it's mainly a supplementary activities for kids whose parents think will help them get into the right schools. There isn't really a lot of room in HK to build a career based on your go skills. More info for those interested in a taste of what HK parents face: http://sassymamahk.com/our-education-ex ... hong-kong/ http://sassymamahk.com/learning-chinese ... our-child/

Author:	daal [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
I know the educations systems of Germany (16th) and the US (36th) fairly well, and my first hunch as the the cause of the difference is that the German kids simply have a greater workload, and yes, the German culture places more value on hard work than the American one. From what I have heard of the Asian school systems, the same hunch would apply. If it is so that the "flawed" educational system is the cause of Western go weakness, I would suggest that it would be due to the effectiveness of improving at go through drills, a study method that rightly or wrongly, Western societies have by and large rejected as incompatible to their culture. There are however disciplines where drills still play a role, such as music and athletics, where interestingly enough, the West has not fallen behind.

Author:	daal [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
tchan001 wrote: So if you ask me why the education system here seems to result in higher Pisa tests, it's probably because of the extraordinary competitiveness to get into the right school, the amount of money parents are willing to invest in the next generation to give them a head start on their competition, and the very high standards set by the elite institutions to weed out the multitudes of applicants. This can't be the reason, because PISA tests are taken by students of a wide variety of schools, not just the right ones.

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Author:	entropi [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Search for something like "4 years old playing piano" on youtube, and get depressed. Vast majority originating from far east. Maybe discipline, maybe culture, maybe genetics (politically incorrect?), or maybe just because there are more than one billion Chinese people... But whatever it is, it surely does not relate only to Go. EDIT: Forgot this one: ...maybe higher tendency to post on youtube...

Author:	Boidhre [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Different focuses. France excels at producing a small percentage of very, very good students at the price of the mean. Ireland focuses on the opposite with a steady dumbing down of materials in the name of "accessibility." Thus Ireland will look better in these tests than France will and that bears out. It's not the only factor by a long way of course. I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now.

Author:	Archivist [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
I'd say it's discipline. Americans tend to be too distracted by social media and TV.

Author:	hyperpape [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
We should probably leave the United States out of it, because our system has such a particular pattern of dysfunction. My understanding is that the United States educational system is primarily so bad because it leaves particular disadvantaged students behind (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... l-america/). Teasing out which elements of the system are working and which aren't makes aggregate statistics rather pointless.

Author:	Kirby [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
I don't know much about Pisa tests, but looking at the data, Korea has scored well in recent years. As far as reasons for good performance, I would attribute a couple of factors: * Sheer amount of time spent in serious study - my wife, being from Korea, would wake up in the early morning (around 6am), go directly to school for study, and would stay until nearly midnight before returning home. Mind you, this represents the amount of time spent at the peak of her high school education, but there was literally no time for other activity. Being exhausted, it was sometimes common for kids to take quick naps during 5 minute breaks, just to have energy to maintain study. * Cultural focus on education - In the US, after school activities, time with friends, and time with family, are important aspects of personal development. In Korea, education is much more highly prioritized, since your performance on college entrance exam will largely determine your place in society. Whether this is all good is debatable. For example, my wife, while having performed quite well on standardized tests herself, sometimes envies the activities that kids in the US are able to participate in - band, after school sports, and the like. Another problem is that, while the sheer volume of study is extreme, sometimes there's question as to the efficiency of the study. For example, after studying English for hours and hours and hours, some people still can't communicate verbally with English speakers, due to the way they studied. I agree that Pisa tests measue what they measure. However, the discipline required to achieve consistently good results is admirable, and a trait that could certainly be applied to serious go study.

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Obviously tchan answered the question - for HK at least. I can't believe these kids have much freetime and even less free choice what to do with it. The west is slowly but surely going in the same direction, the only question is whether a good Pisa-score makes better students or better humans. As Robert Jasiek points out, Pisa is standardized, you get a high score if you prepare correctly. The "asian approach" shows that constant drill is sufficient to get high scores. The same is true with Go, I guess. If your parents - from the very beginning - keep an eye over your Go-studies and build up the pressure to make them proud (or something), well, then you either succeed or break apart.

Author:	macelee [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
I totally agree with Kirby's explanation. Yesterday there was a BBC Radio 4 journalist visiting Korea and reported exactly the same situation - it is quite normal for high-school-age students to spend 14 hours a day studying. Same happen in many parts of China.

Author:	Boidhre [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Archivist wrote: I'd say it's discipline. Americans tend to be too distracted by social media and TV. And you think Europeans aren't? The US School System's problems are (from what I've read) far more systemic than simply a discipline problem.

Author:	Boidhre [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
macelee wrote: I totally agree with Kirby's explanation. Yesterday there was a BBC Radio 4 journalist visiting Korea and reported exactly the same situation - it is quite normal for high-school-age students to spend 14 hours a day studying. Same happen in many parts of China. Too a lesser extent it happens in some European countries in their elite schools but it would certainly not be the norm in these countries. The idea (which I think is reasonable) is that it makes sense to push the brightest extremely hard but pretty pointless to ask a middling or weak student to slave for 9-10 hours a day on advanced material.

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Author:	skydyr [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
One thing about these tests that is often glossed over in the media is that student achievement across all countries and testing areas is closely correlated with poverty and the general economic stability of the students being tested.

Author:	tj86430 [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Boidhre wrote: I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now. That's what I would say about the Finnish system, too. Apparently the tests don't agree with me (although Finland doesn't do as well in the tests as it used to do)

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
In the US the main difference between schools that explains most of the difference in scores on standardized tests is the socio-economic class of the students. Part of that is the fact that the US funds schools mainly through property taxes, so that schools in affluent areas get more money. Part of it has to do with the loss of academic skills by poorer students during summer vacations. Anyway, affluent students in the US score well on international standardized tests, even though you can hardly say that they are more disciplined than other US students. tchan's post makes me wonder if class plays a role in Hong Kong. How can poor parents compete to get their kids into elite pre-schools?

Author:	paK0 [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
tj86430 wrote: Boidhre wrote: I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now. That's what I would say about the Finnish system, too. Apparently the tests don't agree with me (although Finland doesn't do as well in the tests as it used to do) Thats quite interesting, literally everytime someone brings up flaws in the German education-system the first answer given is always: Look how Finnland does it. @thread: I don't think the education-system of a country does have anything to do with how good that country is at go though. When it comes to sports competition usually the countries that do well are the ones where to sport is recognized the most/really popular. Suppose if a kid really likes Go from an early age on and studies to become really good. In Korea/Japan/China you can monetize that skill by becoming a pro, in Europe and America its a lot harder to get paid for being good at go.

Author:	Boidhre [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
tj86430 wrote: Boidhre wrote: I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now. That's what I would say about the Finnish system, too. Apparently the tests don't agree with me (although Finland doesn't do as well in the tests as it used to do) Our two current linked issues are: (well no, the popular press ones rather than actual) Teacher salaries still being tied to the boom more than the current economic reality. Result: Understaffing as schools don't have enough money to meet enough salaries. Very poor teacher:student ratios. People point to Finland because, lower salaries and lower ratios and good results compared to us. That and Finland is comparable population size wise to us which helps, neither country can get the economies of scale of say France or Germany or suffer from the greater bureaucratic load that such size brings either.

Author:	tapir [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
paK0 wrote: Thats quite interesting, literally everytime someone brings up flaws in the German education-system the first answer given is always: Look how Finnland does it. Only because it is inconvenient to state the obvious: the East German education system was superior, so people have to refer to Finland instead. Polytechnical education, comprehensive school instead of selection in the 4th grade, comparable exams are just a few points. At least with regard to the exams Germany is slowly learning.