Let's put it that way: It was not obvious to come up with that move, but when it was played Genan saw how good it was
Is this explanation good enough for you?
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| Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10148 |
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| Author: | Greg [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
This is probably a very dumb question but I want to know where I am going wrong. For reference I can't even be called a beginner. As the wikipedia page indicates, can this ear-reddening move really be considered a divine move? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Go ... ivine_move The page states "A divine move is a truly inspired and original move; one that is non-obvious and which balances strategy and tactics to turn a losing game into a winning game." What I have a problem with is the "non-obvious" part. It surely can't be non obvious if Genan's ears went red? He knew what Shusaku had done and thus it's obvious? Obviously at the level on display it's like probably impossible not to sneak in a move that is non obvious to your opponent so wouldn't a more fair representation of the divine move be something like this? "A divine move is a truly inspired and original move which balances strategy and tactics to turn a losing game into a winning game." Thank you |
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| Author: | Hushfield [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
It's really just semantics. I think the altered definition you provided works just as well. I wouldn't be too worried about it. Actually, wikipedia is generally not a very good source for info on go, something which you just proved again by showing us they included something as silly as <holy voice> a divine move </holy voice> in their list of go terms. |
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| Author: | Viator [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
Let's put it that way: It was not obvious to come up with that move, but when it was played Genan saw how good it was Is this explanation good enough for you? |
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| Author: | oren [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
In a book by Yoda Norimoto he quotes Go Seigen as saying any top player would be able to find this move. Yoda also agrees with his statement. The ear-reddenning move is much more interesting from the historical story perspective of the doctor predicting the outcome. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
Greg wrote: The page states "A divine move is a truly inspired and original move; one that is non-obvious and which balances strategy and tactics to turn a losing game into a winning game." What I have a problem with is the "non-obvious" part. It surely can't be non obvious if Genan's ears went red? He knew what Shusaku had done and thus it's obvious? First, I wouldn't take Wikipedia too seriously, especially on a definition of a term with a subjective component. Edit: Besides which, how does the correct move "turn a losing game into a winning game"? Maybe it wins a won game. That's about it. It's a lala definition. Second, if the move were obvious, why would Gennan's ears have reddened? Maybe he would have gotten a rueful expression because the kid saw the obvious move. Too bad. Obvious after the fact is not the same as obvious. |
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| Author: | Greg [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
Okay I think I get it now. Originally I was thinking that in this case (in order to be a divine move), Shusaku would have played the move and then Genan would have looked at it, then continued playing without realizing what damage that move had done. As the game concluded, he would have then realized what that move had done to tip the game in Shusaku's favor. I now realize that it is not relevant at all whether Genan understood how important that move was during the game or in hindsight. It's simply playing an inspired move to win the game regardless of whether the opponent picks up on it or not. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
Greg wrote: It's simply playing an inspired move to win the game regardless of whether the opponent picks up on it or not. Winning the game is not actually necessary. There are a number of games that are considered masterpieces, even lifetime masterpieces, where the player who produced the masterpiece lost the game. These are often two stone games that White lost. |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
Quote: I now realize that it is not relevant at all whether Genan understood how important that move was during the game or in hindsight. It is entirely relevant because that was the point of the story. There'd been a bit of argy-bargy among the spectators. Genan's pupils were smugly predicting a victory for their teacher, and this got up the nose of a doctor. He ventured to suggest that, although he was weak at go, he could infer that Shusaku was likely to win because Genan's ears had reddened upon seeing this move, which showed Genan was no longer confident. There was no comment on the move per se. In fact, it seems more likely it was a counting issue (based on Genan's previous move, which was intended to forestall some "bullying" or imeji). He had simply now realised that avoiding imeji was not enough. Reference to this as a "divine move" is a western thing - more imeji of go and the English language by the Hikaru generation. And rather than a Shusaku masterpiece, it is better recognised as a Genan masterpiece, getting so close to Shusaku with no komi. |
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| Author: | gowan [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
There is another historical game in which Gennan, playing white, was confronted with an astounding and unexpected move which allowed his opponent, Fujita 4-dan, to capture an eleven stone group. This game, played over three days in 1852, is discussed on pages 105 and after in the book Magic on the First Line by the late Nakayama Noriyuki, published by Slate and Shell. Supposedly, when Gennan saw this amazing move he hurriedly adjourned the game complaining of a stomach-ache. Four days later the game was resumed and Gennan won by one point. This time the player of the brilliant move against Gennan ended up losing though actually Fujita distinguished himself in the game. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
gowan wrote: There is another historical game in which Gennan, playing white, was confronted with an astounding and unexpected move which allowed his opponent, Fujita 4-dan, to capture an eleven stone group. This game, played over three days in 1852, is discussed on pages 105 and after in the book Magic on the First Line by the late Nakayama Noriyuki, published by Slate and Shell. Supposedly, when Gennan saw this amazing move he hurriedly adjourned the game complaining of a stomach-ache. Four days later the game was resumed and Gennan won by one point. This time the player of the brilliant move against Gennan ended up losing though actually Fujita distinguished himself in the game. This looks like the game. Different reading of the name, though. |
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| Author: | gowan [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
Bill Spight wrote: gowan wrote: There is another historical game in which Gennan, playing white, was confronted with an astounding and unexpected move which allowed his opponent, Fujita 4-dan, to capture an eleven stone group. This game, played over three days in 1852, is discussed on pages 105 and after in the book Magic on the First Line by the late Nakayama Noriyuki, published by Slate and Shell. Supposedly, when Gennan saw this amazing move he hurriedly adjourned the game complaining of a stomach-ache. Four days later the game was resumed and Gennan won by one point. This time the player of the brilliant move against Gennan ended up losing though actually Fujita distinguished himself in the game. This looks like the game. Different reading of the name, though.Yes, that's the game. The move I mentioned is Black 129 in this game. |
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| Author: | TheBigH [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
That's the kind of move I can never get beforehand but, once I have seen it, it's so obvious. |
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| Author: | moyoaji [ Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
The Ear Reddening Move was clearly very good. It is legendary because of the story about it, the notability of the players, and because of the nature of the game in which it was played. There were several games between Shusaku and Gennan at that time and this game was the second. Everything about the game makes for a great story. You have the 17 year old Shusaku, an up and coming player, against a 50 year old Gennan who his the head of his Go house. For Shusaku to even be able to play Gennan was special, and Gennan obviously assumed he would win, so the first game was a two stone handicap game where Shusaku took black. However, Gennan stopped that game when it became clear that Shusaku did not need the handicap. So the next game was started without a handicap and you are ready for a classic David vs. Goliath tale. The story of the other go experts discussing the game with the doctor just adds to the thrill and, of course, Shusaku had to win in the end to make the story complete. The concept of a "divine move" is more in the context of playing a perfect move in a perfect or nearly perfect game. It can't be a move that exploits some kind of obvious flaw in your opponent's play. For that reason it is hard for a divine move to be an obvious move. While the Ear Reddening Move is a nice candidate for being a divine move, it can't really be called one. For a move to be a divine move it must be the best move. In the book "Invincible" professionals give additional moves that black could have played instead of the Ear Reddening Move and the results shown are not unfavorable for black. By its nature a divine move would, in hindsight, become the only move. There would be no question of "how could black play differently?" because any other move would lead to a worse result. As Oren said, any top level professional could find this move. Maybe some strong amateurs could. But the thing I like best about this move is how it seems to exemplify Shusaku's style of play. The move has many similarities to the other move Shusaku is famous for: his diagonal. Both of these moves are good moves, yes, but they are not good because they are forceful moves. Instead, they both do a lot of little things that take the entire board into account. Shusaku's moves tend to be calm without being timid. He seemed to prefer to defend before attacking. To build for himself before destroying his opponent's position. That is why I like to look at his games. He always seems to be thinking globally with his moves, yet he doesn't force anything to happen until he is prepared. I think there are a lot of things to like about the Ear Reddening Move, even without the story. It is a move that, were I to see it in a professional game, I would take a moment to study and probably be awed by the ingenuity of the professional. No weak player could find this move. And the move is, without a doubt, a perfect example of whole-board thinking. |
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| Author: | Mef [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about the ear-reddening move (the divine move) |
oren wrote: In a book by Yoda Norimoto he quotes Go Seigen as saying any top player would be able to find this move. Yoda also agrees with his statement. The ear-reddenning move is much more interesting from the historical story perspective of the doctor predicting the outcome. Indeed, the story is what makes it famous. In the NFL there are on average ten 97+ yard drives every single year yet only one of them gets the wiki page "The Drive". |
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