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problems and game recreations on a physical goban
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Author:  cmhobbs [ Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  problems and game recreations on a physical goban
I wasn't sure if this was a better fit for the Amateurs board or not but it felt like a beginner's question to me.

Is there real value to replaying a game (either from an SGF or one of your own games) out on a physical goban? I've done it a few times and I feel like it might help with memorizing attacks or common responses.

As an extension of that, does it make more sense to play out life and death problems on a physical board when presented with an SGF or other online aide? I often get frustrated when I try to play out life and death problems on a physical board because I'm not yet skilled enough in a lot of cases to know how white would respond to my move(s). I rely a lot on the answers provided for insight.

Thanks!
Author:  Shawn Ligocki [ Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: problems and game recreations on a physical goban
I find it helpful to use a physical board when I'm having trouble with a life or death problem and I want to try and work it out without seeing optimal white responses. Of course this only works if the problems are close enough to your level that you can find the good responses.

In my mind there are different levels of success in solving go problems: solving at sight from looking at the position, solving by reading out potential moves and responses without actually putting the pieces down, trying out different sequences by playing them and seeing what opponent responses you can find, playing them out and getting expert responses (from SGF or strong player). The higher level you can solve the problem, the better, but every level teaches you something.
Author:  joellercoaster [ Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: problems and game recreations on a physical goban
Early on, I really struggled to read even the little kifu that came with tsumego and textbook examples. So it helped to play them out on a board.

I did spend a lot of time laying out problems though... my reading (kifu and imagination) still stucks but it's getting better. Hang in there, it seems everything in Go is a matter of practice.
Author:  xed_over [ Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: problems and game recreations on a physical goban
I think there's something to using all your senses, sight, touch, hearing, etc... to help reinforce things (help you remember/memorize)
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
cmhobbs wrote:
I rely a lot on the answers provided for insight.
Provided that the answers are all correct (and comprehensive) --
if you can memorize every answer you come across, that's not so bad. :)
(Quite a feat, actually!)

In addition to what xed_over said, there are other advantages with
a nice set: example -- you can hone your stone-placement and stone-removal skills. :)
Author:  CnP [ Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: problems and game recreations on a physical goban
For game records I think it helps slow you down - in a good way. Having to lay out the stones rather than click through a sgf file (and learning where to expect the next play) seems like it should be beneficial. Also, just reading a kifu I find it difficult to look at the board at move, 23 (for example) and not see the future moves - i.e. in a diagram showing the first 50 moves.

I've never found laying out tsumego on the board to be useful and it seems to me that since you're training your ability to read ahead it should all be done in the head. If you can't do the problem mentally you might be better off picking easier problems. I tried it a few times but it always seems to take ages just setting up the stones though it might force you to pay attention to the placing of all the stones.
Author:  quantumf [ Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: problems and game recreations on a physical goban
cmhobbs wrote:
Is there real value to replaying a game (either from an SGF or one of your own games) out on a physical goban?


I frequently (probably 3-4 times a week) play out a pro game on a real board. I have no idea whether it's valuable, but I enjoy it for its own sake, and if it improves my chances of playing a pro-like move every now and again, then that's a bonus.
Author:  leichtloeslich [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: problems and game recreations on a physical goban
Everything CnP said. Tsumegos are supposed to train your reading ability. You don't do that when you're playing out variations on a goban.

Disclaimer: I sometimes do it when a problem I can't solve drives me mad because (I think) I considered every single move and every single response. Sometimes you just get into a reading deadlock.

Usually I find that I was either missing a liberty-shortage in some variation, thought a move was forced when it wasn't or simply didn't consider some unusual looking first-move at all.
I only do it if I want to move on from the problem no matter what. Of course I should just leave it and revisit it later.

But I am weak.

And everytime I do cheat like this I feel a certain undefined sadness of a missed opportunity, because I know I just deprived myself of ever really solving that problem.

The guitar-solo from Wind of Change only plays when I finally solve a problem on my own, without using stones as crutches.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
cmhobbs wrote:
I rely a lot on the answers provided for insight.
Provided that the answers are all correct (and comprehensive) --
if you can memorize every answer you come across, that's not so bad. :)
(Quite a feat, actually!)


It might be obvious, but you have to memorize the problem as well as the answer. At least the placement of key stones. Believe it or not, people sometimes play the correct move for a position that is similar to, but different from, the position they actually face. ;)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: problems and game recreations on a physical goban
Segoe outlines a three step procedure to problems.

1) Look at the diagram and solve it in your head.
2) If that doesn't work, lay out the problem on the board and solve it in your head.
3) If that doesn't work, play out variations on the board.

:)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: problems and game recreations on a physical goban
IMNSHO, there is a value, even after you have solved a problem in your head, to setting it up and playing it out on the board. As xed_over says, you engage your senses. You get the answer in your fingers. :) You are also overlearning the problem and answer when you set it up and play it out from memory. :)

I also think that, especially at the DDK level, the value of problems lies not just in improving the calculation of variations, but also in learning new concepts (even if they do not have a name). I highly recommend playing around with positions, in your head and on the board, to discover what is there.

Here is a nice little discovery in a basic life and death position. :)
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