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| How to defend against a monkey jump? http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5062 |
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| Author: | tezza [ Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | How to defend against a monkey jump? |
Hi, In a recent game, my opponent did three monkey jumps  . How do I defend against them?.I looked at the SL pages on this topic and a discussion in the Study Group folder, but I'm struggling to come up with a general rule (along the lines of "hane at the head") that I can recall in the heat of a game. Any suggestions? Cheers tezza |
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| Author: | jts [ Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
Hm let's see if I can write this up before I get ninja'ed.  First, there really is no one answer. Désolé! The two black stones and two white stones in contact make the endgame reducing move at the marked spot playable. The other white stones can be in lots of different places, and they effect best play for black and white. This is the simplest way for W to respond - block as soon as B descends. Whether this is the biggest move on the board of course, is impossible to say. You need to think about what moves W has elsewhere, whether the monkey jump is sente or gote, and whether the hane on the first line will be W's privilege. (That is to say, when W plays a move where a local followup is sente for W and gote for B, we assume that either W will get to make the followup, or B will have to give up a move elsewhere prevent W's sente: so in this case, if W descends we assume that eventually the board will look like this:) Now, once B has made the monkey jump, what should you do? Again, it depends, it all depends. But the obvious move: The key thing to understand is that after W plays on top, B can't get any further into W's territory. So B will have to be satisfied with something like this: Depending on surroundings, though,  might be elsewhere.Here either W or B has a gote follow-up (capturing/saving  ) later.But even though this  is standard doesn't mean you should play it by rote. Sometimes the monkey jump doesn't work at all, and in that case you may need to play your first move elsewhere. You may also have to shift if there are black stones inside the territory that W is trying to defend, or if the white stones on the border are having liberty problems.
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| Author: | gowan [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
Buy yourself a copy of Monkey Jump Workshop" by Richard Hunter, published by Slate and Shell. Actually, being able optimally to deal with all the ramifications of monkey jump situations would make you a strong SDK or dan level player. That's one of the wonderful aspects of the game: fairly simple positions can lead to great complications. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
If a monkey comes too early, then the best defense is tenuki and get something bigger elsewhere. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
tezza wrote: ... I'm struggling to come up with a general rule (along the lines of "hane at the head") that I can recall in the heat of a game. ... There's a good reason for that: there is no general rule. Here's the "rule" I use: Read out 'a'. If it works, play it. Otherwise read out 'b', play it if it works. Et cetera... The white stones in the area make a big difference as to what works. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
Interesting. I put daniel's b before a. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
hyperpape wrote: Interesting. I put daniel's b before a. I've heard that a is better--if it works. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
In this position, they both should work, but seem to be equal. |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
there are three way to answer a,b,c a is the best if it works. b is the second best if it works. c is the safest way to stop but will lose more points. a and b usually have 1/2 point difference. b and c usually have 1/2 point difference. which means a and c have 1 full point difference usually. if it is wide open as below... you will not be able to stop with a or b or c. |
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| Author: | BobC [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
brilliant post Daniel..magicwand... |
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| Author: | tezza [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
Great posts! Thanks  .
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| Author: | jts [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
Magicwand wrote: a and b usually have 1/2 point difference. b and c usually have 1/2 point difference. Can someone give an example of when a would be better than b? Magicwand wrote: if it is wide open as below... you will not be able to stop with a or b or c. I've heard, though, that in this situation the monkey jump is a mistake and jumping on the second line is better. Thoughts? |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
Jts: It seems to be complicated: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJump%2FOrOneSpaceJump. I would also like to see a case where the first line move is better: I'll be watching any games I look at. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
I think this is one example. I'm sure MW can come up with a better one. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
jts wrote: Magicwand wrote: a and b usually have 1/2 point difference. b and c usually have 1/2 point difference. Can someone give an example of when a would be better than b? This looks like a good example, depending on what the situation is on the right. If  , then  and  . (Sorry about that.  ) If the situation is such that later  is sente, it leaves ½ point for Black at "a".If , then is sente (we assume). Later  is sente, threatening a throw in at 6. There is no point at "a".Edit: Magicwand is right about Black's reply when White makes the wrong play. Black should simply pull back with . Now Black gets a full point at "a", not a half point.
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
@daniel It fits Bill's pattern. |
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| Author: | jts [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
Wow. There are more things under tengen than I had dreamt... Wait, I missed what hyperpape/daniel were saying. So in that case the problem is that the move on the second line doesn't prevent him from crawling farther in. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
hyperpape wrote: My example has a more obvious reason why the first line move is better:
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| Author: | prokofiev [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
Bill Spight wrote: This looks like a good example, depending on what the situation is on the right. If , then and . (Sorry about that. ) If the situation is such that later is sente, it leaves ½ point for Black at "a".If , then is sente (we assume). Later is sente, threatening a throw in at 6. There is no point at "a".Nice. This example also shows the full point difference between MW's 'a' and 'c': (Assuming white needs 7.) Later: Black has a point from the captured stone. |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to defend against a monkey jump? |
jts wrote: Magicwand wrote: a and b usually have 1/2 point difference. b and c usually have 1/2 point difference. Can someone give an example of when a would be better than b? point x is one point endgame for both black and white. both have 50/50 rights to one point endgame. so i said they are .5 endgame. but as i said before ... situation might say otherwise but above situation is true. |
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