Life In 19x19 :: Fuseki question

Author:

Twitchy Go [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:03 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Fuseki question

I'd personally play elsewhere. If he wants to spend another move locally I then have 3 corners staked out and potential aji in the fourth corner. Assuming rationality your opponent will play elsewhere. This gives you more information to decide how to respond to his initial approach.

Although the kind of people who approach you immediately might be interested in a slug-fest fighting game. In that case I advise calm and solid play. DONT LET THEM RATTLE YOU! A quick way to lose is to start thinking, "Wow this guy is overplaying, I'm going to punish him." Don't let him get away with stuff he has no business getting away with, but its to easy to start overplaying to punish the overplays.

I'd like to conclude with some words of wisdom that has always helped me with unorthodox/hyper-aggressive players.: "Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig will enjoy it."

An example of calm play from one of my own games

P.S: Listen to Bill Spight, he's good :mrgreen:

Author:	txcpa [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Fuseki question
Hi! Could someone please give me some advice about how to respond to an opponent’s moves that deviate from typical fuseki plays? For instance, there have been several times that my opponent will approach my first corner play (as his first move), rather than playing in another corner. Most of what I have learned about the opening game assumes that each player plays in different corners first, and then either extends, closes his own corner, or approaches an opponent’s corner. So, if I’m playing as black and place my first stone on either a 3-4 point or a 4-4 point, and then my opponent approaches by means of a one-point approach or a knight’s move approach, is it best to immediately defend against the approach, or to take advantage of another empty corner? Or would this depend on whether my initial stone was placed on a non-symmetrical point (3-4, for example) or on the 4-4 point? It seems to me that regardless of where I play my first stone it would be best to temporarily ignore the approach move and take advantage of bigger plays in the other corners. That way, even if the opponent destroys that corner, I would have gained more by playing elsewhere. Is this correct? Thanks!

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Author:	Buri [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
Greetings, I am a relative beginner so please are my answer as the lowest on the totem pole. I share a certain amount of frustration with you because I don't find this the most enjoyable or useful kind of game. O f courses, if this is a handicap game it is a different story but blank board is special! I don't think you abandon the corner.After ally, if you go for another one the story is going to repeat itself. What I think you need to do is learn a few basic joseki and their variations. Then you can ask if the situation corresponds to one of these and try to lay it out. This will also give you some hint as to where to play next. Selection of joseki is global rather than local. if you lose the corner but gain some thickness then you might want to select your direction of play according to that thickness. Although I said joseki firsts, the study of tsumego is fundamental. The more you do this (at least half your playing time according to Guo Juan)the more quickly you will see good shapes and recognize that aside from crude attacks your opponent has very little idea of good shape , when to nobi or have etc. Your confidence should go up and up. In the end though, as soon as it degenerates into a messy dog fight and you see yourself making empty triangles, donuts and all manner of of ppointless heavy shapes do what you said.rack op lots of territory elsewhere while your opponent carries on a pointless quest to take your corner lumps. Bes t wishes, Buri

Author:	jts [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
1. When you play a 3-4 stone, you create a valuable follow-up (for either player) in approximately the 5-3 area (6-3 and 5-4 are also good). Together, these two stones control the corner. The 4-6 (or the 3-6, 4-5, etc) - that is to say, an extension in the opposite direction - is much less valuable. The basic idea with the 3-4 is to pincer an approach stone. 2. When you play a 4-4 stone, there are two equally good follow-ups at 6-3 and 3-6 (or nearby). These two moves are miai. If one of you takes one, the other can always come in to take the opposite point. 3. So, thinking about -1- and -2-, you can see that after a 4-4 approach the temperature is quite high (the second approach has the same value as the first, if not higher) while after a 3-4 approach the temperature falls (the approach has just taken the most valuable move in the area, and the followup will be smaller). This is why people will frequently ignore 3-4 approaches in the opening to take empty corners or approach a 4-4 stone, but will usually reply to a 4-4 approach.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
Generally, in the first few moves it is better to ignore an approach to the 3-4 point. Pros used to respond (usually with a pincer) a few hundred years ago, but gradually started playing in an open corner. As for an approach to the 4-4 point, sometimes they ignore it, sometimes they do not. In any event, it is not a big deal. Any loss from making the wrong choice before the board has developed is small. But remember my proverb, When in doubt, tenuki. If tenuki is wrong, let your opponent prove it. You will learn something.

Author:	hyperpape [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
If you play a 3-4 stone and your opponent immediately approaches it with a 5-3 or 5-4 point, don't panic because he approached your corner too early. Just go play in an empty corner. Now he needs to panic, because he played a 5-3 or a 5-4 and you approached his corner early

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
Twitchy Go wrote: Listen to Bill Spight, he's good I'm kind, too. jts has some interesting thoughts, as well.

Author:	CnP [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
Interesting question (and answers!). I have to say sometimes I play an early approach to a stone on the 3-4 point. Why? I don't think I'm hyper agressive but also I'm trying to be less passive in my game. I've also been studying joseki so might want to steer the game towards interesting joseki - i.e. deny them the chance at making an enclosure there. Also, I have read and been told that approaching a 3-4 stone is as valuable as playing first in an empty corner. Maybe it's not but as Kageyama said, play the game you want to. I wouldn't approach a 4-4 point early because it's supposed to 'deal with the corner' with one stone. I don't consider it rude play. Also, being on the receiving end I usual tenuki btw.

Author:	Twitchy Go [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
CnP wrote: Interesting question (and answers!). I have to say sometimes I play an early approach to a stone on the 3-4 point. Why? I don't think I'm hyper agressive but also I'm trying to be less passive in my game. I've also been studying joseki so might want to steer the game towards interesting joseki - i.e. deny them the chance at making an enclosure there. Also, I have read and been told that approaching a 3-4 stone is as valuable as playing first in an empty corner. Maybe it's not but as Kageyama said, play the game you want to. I wouldn't approach a 4-4 point early because it's supposed to 'deal with the corner' with one stone. I don't consider it rude play. Also, being on the receiving end I usual tenuki btw. This seems to perhaps be in response to me. A point of clarification then. I have also heard that approaching a 3-4 is equal to taking the open corner.(I have my own preferences on the matter with some fuseki but that doesn't matter here). But the few games where an opponent has approached me right away have been with players intent on basing the game on a giant mess of a fight. Edit: the early approach is a valid move, but there is a casual correlation to aggressive play.

Author:	bakekoq [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
btw, why don't you open eidogo.com it'll be really help you. I read them this long night.

Author:	hyperpape [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
I do not think the immediate approach is necessarily aggressive. For the immediate 5-4 approach to the 3-4, I believe the most common player is Cho U, and his play was very territorial.

Author:	fantans [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
Don't only play Joseki you understand --- play those you can remember. Over time, you will understand. I recommend the classic Dictionary of Basic Joseki by Ishida Yoshio. If you memorize the book, I guarantee you reach KGS 5d, at the least.

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Author:	Twitchy Go [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
hyperpape wrote: I do not think the immediate approach is necessarily aggressive. For the immediate 5-4 approach to the 3-4, I believe the most common player is Cho U, and his play was very territorial. Cool. I might try it sometime then seeing as I like to play territorially. My comments are based on personal experience of such approaches, so should be taken with a grain of salt.

Author:	ez4u [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
jts wrote: 1. When you play a 3-4 stone, you create a valuable follow-up (for either player) in approximately the 5-3 area (6-3 and 5-4 are also good). Together, these two stones control the corner. The 4-6 (or the 3-6, 4-5, etc) - that is to say, an extension in the opposite direction - is much less valuable. The basic idea with the 3-4 is to pincer an approach stone. 2. When you play a 4-4 stone, there are two equally good follow-ups at 6-3 and 3-6 (or nearby). These two moves are miai. If one of you takes one, the other can always come in to take the opposite point. 3. So, thinking about -1- and -2-, you can see that after a 4-4 approach the temperature is quite high (the second approach has the same value as the first, if not higher) while after a 3-4 approach the temperature falls (the approach has just taken the most valuable move in the area, and the followup will be smaller). This is why people will frequently ignore 3-4 approaches in the opening to take empty corners or approach a 4-4 stone, but will usually reply to a 4-4 approach. I like this post. At the same time there is an additional point that I have been struggling to put into words recently. The above is what we might consider the orthodox explanation of the 3-4 versus 4-4 in the corner. The 4-4 is fast because it 'settles the corner in one play', etc. However, unlike the 3-4 the 4-4 does not settle the direction of the corner. In addition, at least at the pro level, an approach to a 4-4 stone will be answered immediately around 95% of the time, while it is more like 65% for the low approach to the 3-4 stone. Therefore, taking that highly valuable point facing the 3-4 stone is likely to be gote, while choosing the direction of play in a 4-4 corner by approaching from one side or the other is likely to be sente (and not infrequently these days is played as a kikashi). So which is the more urgent play? Which is the more valuable play?

Author:	fantans [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
If this puzzles you, it is very likely how you would respond to it has little to do with the outcome of the game. I think for beginners, the most important is to study life and death and joseki's. Fuseki does not really make much sense --- learn how stones wrestle with each other before learning how they stare each other.

Author:	Wrenn [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
Another thing to consider with the early approach to the 4-4 is that it is almost a probing move. Your opponent is playing the approach before deciding how to best take a facing corner. Simply replying with the keima jump is sufficient, and they will probably continue to take another corner after the exchange.

Author:	Twitchy Go [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
fantans wrote: If this puzzles you, it is very likely how you would respond to it has little to do with the outcome of the game. I think for beginners, the most important is to study life and death and joseki's. Fuseki does not really make much sense --- learn how stones wrestle with each other before learning how they stare each other. I can only agree with this somewhat. I agree with your point about it not having a substantial impact on the game. However I find/found these theory tidbits incredibly valuable as I was moving up through the DDK. With this specific case all of these posts will likely give txcpa a calmer outlook when approached in such a fashion. If you get rattled in a game and go on tilt you are more likely to lose after all. I can not agree with joseki being important as a beginner. At the most look up 33 invasion sequences. And 1 maybe 2 joseki resulting from approaches of various kinds. Other then that its not worth the effort yet.

Author:	Buri [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
Hi like Twitchy I too can only agree to some extent with the downgrading of the significance of fuseki know how. Good opening strategy not onl sets out massive territory and moyo, it also dictates what joseki to use and vice versa. I am currently working daily on the Guo Juan Opening Training lectures in which she is quite adamant that been relatively high Dan players in the west hit a stumbling block in their progress because their fuseki is not well trained enough. Best wishes, Buri

Author:	fantans [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
True, for Dan players, Fuseki does somewhat matter. But for K players, just remember some simple rules and take it easy. If they approach your corner early, just respond usual. Josekis are important because they teach you life and death, tesuji, and shape, all at the same time.

Author:	Twitchy Go [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fuseki question
fantans wrote: True, for Dan players, Fuseki does somewhat matter. But for K players, just remember some simple rules and take it easy. If they approach your corner early, just respond usual. Josekis are important because they teach you life and death, tesuji, and shape, all at the same time. Ah I see why you advocate the study of joseki. I'd say that you'd get more mileage out of go problems for L&D/Tesuji. I can see joseki teaching shape though. Also I think expecting a beginner to understand the meaning behind every move in a joseki is expecting to much. And that's how it would have to be to learn L&D/Tesuji/shape from studying joseki. I'd say that once someone can keep their groups safe for the most part, along with avoiding broken shape, getting sealed in and living small. They start to benefit considerably from direction of play and theory. Supplemented with alot of go problems for reading practice, as well as serious games with thinking time(using your thinking time is key). Joseki knowledge seems more dan crucial to me. Edit: This could be a different things for different people issue though. I know I've been improving quite briskly without any attempt to learn numerous joseki. I've picked up a few, but only because they are ridiculously overplayed in the kyus of KGS Although that could perhaps be because none of the kyus have studied joseki and only know those few?(I over exaggerate of course, but a few joseki show up alot.