Life In 19x19 :: Small avalanche variation refutation

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Small avalanche variation refutation http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7649	Page 1 of 2

Author: otenki [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:02 am ]

Post subject: Small avalanche variation refutation

Some time ago I had this pattern floating in my head. And I was tring to read out different variations. And I came up to a variation where I could not find a good answer to.

First of all let me say i'm not obsessed with joseki or anything, I just am intrested in this from a shape/reading perspective. :-)

Ok I think most of us are familiar with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$----------- $$|.......... $$|...870.... $$|..916..... $$|..54...... $$|..32...... $$|.......... $$|.......... $$|..........[/go]

Howhever I wonder why i cannot do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$----------- $$|.......... $$|...OXO.... $$|..XXO2.... $$|..XO1..... $$|..XO3..... $$|.......... $$|.......... $$|..........[/go]

If I read deeper the result is always good for black in this case and the two stones cannot be captured.
Of course my reading still is very limited so does anyone know the correct refutation ?

Probably something very easy. :-)

Thanks,
Otenki

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
otenki wrote: Probably something very easy. Yes, extend from atari. The fight looks fine for white to me. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$----------- $$\|.......... $$\|...OXO.... $$\|..XXO2.... $$\|..XO1..... $$\|..XO3..... $$\|...4...... $$\|.......... $$\|..........[/go]`

Author:	otenki [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$----------- $$\|....8..... $$\|..7OXO.... $$\|..XXO2.... $$\|..XO1..... $$\|..XO3..... $$\|.9645..... $$\|.......... $$\|..........[/go]` When I read deeper it looks good for black ...

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
I don't think that is good for black. White can close off the left side so may make territory there (whereas in joseki it is black who has big potential on the left) and black's 3 stones in the centre are weak.

Author: logan [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:26 am ]

Post subject: Re: small avelanche variation refutation

This is the move I learned.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . $$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

Then Black can start some fighting whenever.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm6 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . Y . . 4 . . . . $$ | . . X O . 2 3 . . . . $$ | . . X O . 1 . . . , . $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

However, this is also fine. But I think it's played less -- whether for good or bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O 5 . . . . , . $$ | . . 3 X O 6 . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

Author:	logan [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
Uberdude wrote: I don't think that is good for black. White can close off the left side so may make territory there (whereas in joseki it is black who has big potential on the left) and black's 3 stones in the centre are weak. Ditto, I personally don't like the result for Black, because I'm not sure what those center stones are doing. Someone may argue that it could be used for special circumstances, but my first thought is whether another variation would simply fit better in most circumstances that this would be good for Black.

Author:	otenki [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
Ok so it was not my reading, just my judgement on the position Thanks for the explanation guys, it makes sense. Cheers, Otenki

Author:	lovelove [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm1 $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . 6 . . . , . $$ \| . . 3 X O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 2 1 4 . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]` Old Japanese joseki, white thick. I don't remember the exact source, but I'm very sure about this.

Author:	logan [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
otenki wrote: Ok so it was not my reading, just my judgement on the position Thanks for the explanation guys, it makes sense. Cheers, Otenki Keep up the good work otenki!

Author:	skydyr [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
The shape looks similar to the fight that developed from the small-avalanche double hane in my malkovich game against Deflow. It's not exactly the same, but might be worth looking at because it features the same general idea of a crosscut fight stemming from it.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
otenki wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$----------- $$\|....8..... $$\|..7OXO.... $$\|..XXO2.... $$\|..XO1..... $$\|..XO3..... $$\|.9645..... $$\|.......... $$\|..........[/go]` When I read deeper it looks good for black ... I don't know that 6 is best for white in your diagram. It commits to one side, and does not look for lots of liberties. Maybe 6 like this is better. It threatens both black groups indirectly, and maximizes white's liberties. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$----------- $$\|....0..... $$\|..7OXO.... $$\|..XXO2.... $$\|..XO1..a.. $$\|..XO3.9... $$\|...45..... $$\|...68..... $$\|..........[/go]` FWIW, even 10 may be premature. It may be better around 'a'.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
otenki wrote: Ok so it was not my reading, just my judgement on the position Thanks for the explanation guys, it makes sense. Cheers, Otenki Not so fast. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm1 Joseki $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . 6 . . . , . $$ \| . . 3 X O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 2 1 4 . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]` Since you missed the hane at 5, which threatens double atari, you cannot say that your reading was OK. And yes, keep up the good work!

Author:	lovelove [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
Bill Spight wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm1 Joseki $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . 6 . . . , . $$ \| . . 3 X O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 2 1 4 . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]` That is no more joseki. White is thick.

Author: emeraldemon [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:35 pm ]

Post subject: Re: Small avalanche variation refutation

Not directly relevant, but I always think of the small avalanche as this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Small avalanche $$----------- $$|.......... $$|....,..... $$|...16..... $$|..54...... $$|..32...... $$|...7...... $$|.......... $$|..........[/go]

I'm not sure if this other move is also "small avalanche". Is anything without the the extension the small avalanche?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Medium Avalanche? $$----------- $$|.......... $$|....7..... $$|...16..... $$|..54...... $$|..32...... $$|.......... $$|.......... $$|..........[/go]

Author: SmoothOper [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:58 pm ]

Post subject: Re: Small avalanche variation refutation

emeraldemon wrote:

Not directly relevant, but I always think of the small avalanche as this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Small avalanche $$----------- $$|.......... $$|....,..... $$|...16..... $$|..54...... $$|..32...... $$|...7...... $$|.......... $$|..........[/go]

I'm not sure if this other move is also "small avalanche". Is anything without the the extension the small avalanche?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Medium Avalanche? $$----------- $$|.......... $$|....7..... $$|...16..... $$|..54...... $$|..32...... $$|.......... $$|.......... $$|..........[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Large avalanche $$----------- $$|.......... $$|....,..... $$|...16..... $$|..54...... $$|..32...... $$|..78...... $$|...9...... $$|..........[/go]

One of the plays that I had learned if you don't want to play out the full avalanche, but still want an even result is, which seems similar to your problem, but black has given up a stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Small avalanche with early opt out by white. $$----------- $$|.......... $$|...8,..... $$|..916..... $$|..54...... $$|..32...... $$|...7...... $$|.......... $$|..........[/go]

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: small avelanche variation refutation
lovelove wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm1 Joseki $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . 6 . . . , . $$ \| . . 3 X O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 2 1 4 . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]` That is no more joseki. White is thick. If current opinion is that this is not joseki because White is too thick, then I suppose that is the deviation from joseki?

Author:	Uberdude [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Small avalanche variation refutation
SmoothOper wrote: One of the plays that I had learned if you don't want to play out the full avalanche, but still want an even result is, which seems similar to your problem, but black has given up a stone. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Small avalanche with early opt out by white. $$----------- $$\|.......... $$\|...8,..... $$\|..916..... $$\|..54...... $$\|..32...... $$\|...7...... $$\|.......... $$\|..........[/go]` This is bad for white, the simple dodge of is ok when black has played as nobi for the large avalanche as the 2 stones haven't lost a liberty, like this the hane is too painful for their liberties.

Author: emeraldemon [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:14 am ]

Post subject: Re: Small avalanche variation refutation

The one I learned is the trade on the SL page:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Small avalanche $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 4 . . . . $$ | . 3 1 X O . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm5 Canonical joseki $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . $$ | . O O X W 2 . . . $$ | . . B O 4 1 8 . . $$ | . . B O 5 6 . . . $$ | . . 3 X 7 . . . . $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

http://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallAvalanche

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Small avalanche variation refutation
emeraldemon wrote: The one I learned is the trade on the SL page: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm1 Small avalanche $$ ------------------ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 2 4 . . . . $$ \| . 3 1 X O . . . . $$ \| . . X O . . . . . $$ \| . . X O . . . . . $$ \| . . . X . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . .[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm5 Canonical joseki $$ ------------------ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X X . . . . $$ \| . O O X W 2 . . . $$ \| . . B O 4 1 8 . . $$ \| . . B O 5 6 . . . $$ \| . . 3 X 7 . . . . $$ \| . . . 9 . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . .[/go]` http://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallAvalanche Here is a good example of the ambiguity of language. Indeed, this is a small avalanche joseki. However, it is not, on an empty board, an equitable exchange, something that we expect from joseki. It is better for White. The thing is, given the hane that makes the small avalanche, the rest is joseki.

Author: lovelove [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:23 pm ]

Post subject: Re: small avelanche variation refutation

Bill Spight wrote:

lovelove wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 Joseki $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O . 6 . . . , . $$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

That is no more joseki. White is thick.

If current opinion is that this is not joseki because White is too thick, then I suppose that :b1:

is the deviation from joseki?

Black has an option to fight, but the double hane joseki has become really rare.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 Fight $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 3 8 5 . . . . . $$ | . . X O 4 6 7 . . . . $$ | . . X O 1 0 . . . , . $$ | . . X X O 2 . . . . . $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

a or b in the next diagram is the modern choice in this avalanche joseki, which b is becoming more popular.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 Modern Choice $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

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