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simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
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Author:  otenki [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
Hi guys,

All moves in this sequence are joseki except 10.
This was played some time ago against me by a 3k kgs.

Although it was not joseki I could not find any weaknesses or problems with it.

Does white have disadvantage from not playing joseki (s14)?

Maybe playing at q13 is "kindoff" sente now ?

Thanks,
Otenki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . 1 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
I think the main weakness for White is that he still has bad Aji due to the cutting point (R15). Connecting to the black stone should be Black's only move. White can then cut or Hane below. If he plays Hane below Black has the powerful two-step-Hane, immediately exploiting White's bad Aji and sealing of the right side.

If White cuts it's a fight but Black's descend to Q18 is also Sente now (sealing off his framework) to capture at least two stones ( :w2: and :w10:) and settle his cut stones.


post scriptum: Okay, Q18 might not be Sente to capture stones but Black can reduce White's corner.
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
otenki wrote:
Maybe playing at q13 is "kindoff" sente now ?


It doesn't matter if it is sente or gote. It is absolutely the only move. If you even think about playing anything else you should be sent to the Eel De prison camp and subjected to Chinese water torture for a hundred years whilst reciting the lines "I must not allow broken shape". ;-)

otenki wrote:
Does white have disadvantage from not playing joseki (s14)?


Black is thicker. White plays himself into hane at head of 2 stones and has shape and liberty problems around r15 gap (i.e. black can double hane at s11).
Author:  Amelia [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
Uberdude wrote:
It doesn't matter if it is sente or gote. It is absolutely the only move. If you even think about playing anything else you should be sent to the Eel De prison camp and subjected to Chinese water torture for a hundred years whilst reciting the lines "I must not allow broken shape". ;-)

I've wanted to ask this for a while. Is a broken shape a shape where two groups are cut off? Or does it apply to other situations as well?
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
Amelia wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
It doesn't matter if it is sente or gote. It is absolutely the only move. If you even think about playing anything else you should be sent to the Eel De prison camp and subjected to Chinese water torture for a hundred years whilst reciting the lines "I must not allow broken shape". ;-)

I've wanted to ask this for a while. Is a broken shape a shape where two groups are cut off? Or does it apply to other situations as well?


There are several things which can be referred to as broken shape, but the one below is perhaps the most common, "the ripped keima". See how black's two marked stones are a knight's move (keima) and white has busted through the middle of them, cutting them apart, whilst white's stones are solidly connected together. Black's r12 stone is particularly unhappy with few liberties and is basically a junk stone that you wished you never played at all as it's doing practically nothing of value. This is awful for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Broken shape refers to local shapes like this where the stones are in contact, rather that more spaced out strategic things of groups being separated.

Of course like all principles/proverbs there are exceptions, so sometimes it is good to allow broken shapes if there is some special reason, but if you don't immediately think of q13 in the diagram above there is something seriously wrong with your basic instinct.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
See also: http://senseis.xmp.net/?LameDuGo
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
I agree with everybody else about the two step hane. :)
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
this picture is wrong!!!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . 1 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


that is why below is joseki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . 1 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  EdLee [ Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Amelia wrote:
Is a broken shape a shape where two groups are cut off?
Left: a cut.
Center: a cut.
Right: a broken shape for Black -- B is split; W has only 1 group, all connected.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ ( Left: Cut ) ______ ( Center: Cut ) ______ ( Right: Broken shape for B )
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Key shape for a cut is on the Left: the criss-cross.
Center and Right: broken shapes for B (no criss-cross; W is all connected in one piece, only B is broken through by W):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ ( Left: Cut ) _______________ ( Center & Right: Broken shapes for B )
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O X . . . . X . . . . . X . . .
$$ . . . X O . . . . O O . . . O O O . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

For Otenki and Amelia, so for both B and W (in Otenki's original diagram),
Q13 is the first feeling and only move (re: Uberdude).
Author:  otenki [ Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
After a lot of reviews from EdLee I know what broken shape is and how to avoid it.
Howhever thanks for reminding me :-)

It is funny howhever that I keep missing the broken shapes in my own games and in basic joseki.
Again thanks for reminding me.

I guess I'll need to keep reminding myself again and again until my head hurts ...

Also the double hane is so easy yet I did not read it.

In the original game I played Q18 so I should be sent to the chinese prison camp I guess. (instead I'll go to china to study weiqi in the summer :rambo: )

Howhever the important thing is that I think I really understand my wrong ideas about shapes and thickness.

Black just wants power, he does not really need to descent because he loses power this way due to the broken shape. The bottom invasion does not really change anything to the balance of power anyway. It just reduces should white want to play there.

Thanks guys !!!!

Otenki
Author:  EdLee [ Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:10 am ]
Post subject: 
otenki wrote:
I know what broken shape is and how to avoid it.
Don't be so sure -- that was mainly for Amelia, but there are still many cases where
I am confused and don't how to evaluate the situation! :)
Author:  otenki [ Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
otenki wrote:
I know what broken shape is and how to avoid it.
Don't be so sure -- that was mainly for Amelia, but there are still many cases where
I am confused and don't how to evaluate the situation! :)


Yeah thats so true, every time I think I know something I discover a month later that I was wrong and the truth is a little different.
The same thing for value of and the use of thickness, this has changed so drastically in my mind over the last few months :-)

I'll be more modest and say I've learned a little bit about broken shapes instead :D

Cheers!
Author:  peppernut [ Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
Magicwand wrote:

that is why below is joseki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . 1 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Which means essentially White's taking gote by playing :w8:. That's the meaning of the deviation from the more typical S14 joseki.

This is interesting to note and maybe worth trying for its surprise value.
Author:  xed_over [ Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Amelia wrote:
Is a broken shape a shape where two groups are cut off?
Left: a cut.
Center: a cut.
Right: a broken shape for Black -- B is split; W has only 1 group, all connected.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ ( Left: Cut ) ______ ( Center: Cut ) ______ ( Right: Broken shape for B )
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Key shape for a cut is on the Left: the criss-cross.
Center and Right: broken shapes for B (no criss-cross; W is all connected in one piece, only B is broken through by W):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ ( Left: Cut ) _______________ ( Center & Right: Broken shapes for B )
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O X . . . . X . . . . . X . . .
$$ . . . X O . . . . O O . . . O O O . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

For Otenki and Amelia, so for both B and W (in Otenki's original diagram),
Q13 is the first feeling and only move (re: Uberdude).


Thanks for demonstrating the differences between cuts and broken shapes. I've missed that understanding in my learning of "the basics"
Author:  gowan [ Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: simple one space pincer joseki question (beginner)
peppernut wrote:
Magicwand wrote:

that is why below is joseki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . 1 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Which means essentially White's taking gote by playing :w8:. That's the meaning of the deviation from the more typical S14 joseki.

This is interesting to note and maybe worth trying for its surprise value.


This a joseki. There are many reasons why White might play this way. Black's moyo on the upper side is open in the upper right. Both players would like to have the opportunity to play at a. Also, there is the potential of a White cut at b, isolating one black stone. If Black then defends the cut off stone, the black wall can become a target. Often after the move :W10:, Black plays some move to help the :B3: stone, such as extending on the right side or jumping toward the center. So :W10: actually has a certain sente quality :)
Author:  EdLee [ Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
xed_over wrote:
I've missed that understanding in my learning of "the basics"
Yes, I also had no idea for years, until I was lucky enough to get yelled at by a teacher.
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