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| Qustion: Life and death http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9264 |
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| Author: | Ike [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Qustion: Life and death |
Hey, I just played a go game where my opponent and me did't knew wether white is dead or alive. It, as we think, doesn't have two eyes but black cant take the stones either. It also doesnt looke like a seki. Can you please teach two beginners what the situation exactly is? Thx a lot for your help! 
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
White is alive. There is nothing black can do to prevent the capture of the single stone inside the group. That gives white the second eye. He already has one to the left. Under the rules, it is not necessary to actually capture the stone. It is just removed at the end of the game. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
The White group is alive, the Black stone is dead.  You can verify this because, even if White never defends the White group, Black cannot capture it. OTOH, even if Black defends the Black stone, White can capture it. May I suggest that you play by area scoring rules, which counts both stones and territory. With those rules it is easy to resolve questions of life and death by play. The AGA rules are area rules. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?AGARules
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| Author: | Bonobo [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
What nobody yet mentioned: the white group DOES have two eyes. Look again. The left one has just one point and the right one has been poked in the eye by B, but to no avail, as others have said. |
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| Author: | Ike [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
Ok thank you alot I understand it better now! |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Ike, as others explained, White is alive with one eye at (a) and the second eye at the greyed area, including the dead  stone: |
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| Author: | Ike [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
Wow, nice! Thx for all the explations Can i ask you how to make such graphics? Edit: Is the code implemented in the forum? |
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
Click the "quote" button on EdLee's post and you will see the code. |
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| Author: | daal [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
And here is a post about how to make diagrams here on the site. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=226 BTW, has anyone mentioned that in your picture, white does in fact have two eyes? (We're so glad to see a question we can answer). 
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| Author: | tynan [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Black failed to take into account the eye at "a". If not for that eye, then yes, Black could kill white (I think). EdLee wrote: Ike, as others explained, White is alive with one eye at (a) and the second eye at the greyed area, including the dead
stone: |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
tynan wrote: Black failed to take into account the eye at "a". If not for that eye, then yes, Black could kill white (I think). Yes, that shape with that black stone in the middle is a dead shape. There's no way to make two eyes from that eye space after black plays in the centre. |
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| Author: | tynan [ Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
Next to some members' names I see the phrases "lives in gote" "lives in sente", "dies in gote", etc. What is the difference between sente and gote? |
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| Author: | PeterN [ Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
Sente is a move which takes/holds the initiative, requires the opponent to respond, or however you prefer to put it (or can cause damage to your opponent if they tenuki), while gote is the opposite. In this context though I think it's just the number of posts you've made PeterN |
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| Author: | tynan [ Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
So, a move which solidifies an area with 2 eyes while not attacking, is considered "living in gote".
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| Author: | PeterN [ Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
Yup, that'd be one example PeterN |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
tynan wrote: Next to some members' names I see the phrases "lives in gote" "lives in sente", "dies in gote", etc. What is the difference between sente and gote? If you die in gote your group was already dead, when you played another move there you changed nothing so your opponent can ignore it. Or even worse, your group's life status was undecided but the move you made killed it (though this may have a different term). It's a very bad thing normally. 
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| Author: | palapiku [ Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
Boidhre wrote: Or even worse, your group's life status was undecided but the move you made killed it (though this may have a different term). Suicide in gote. I've seen this happen in a real game (that I was spectating) and it was the greatest thing ever. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
tynan, here are two (contrived) examples for you. In both cases, assume komi = 0.0, and use territory scoring. Case 1. Does  live in sente or gote ?Case 2. Does live in sente or gote ?See also Sente and Gote. |
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| Author: | tynan [ Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Qustion: Life and death |
Case 1: Black lives in Gote in order to answer White's last move (which probably established 2 eyes for White, while Black did not yet have 2 eyes and could therefore be killed). The score at the end of Black's 2-eye making move is a tie with White, 2-2. Case 2: Black lives in Sente by doing two things at once: establishing a second eye, and threatening to prevent White from making a 3rd eye which would result in a winning score for White (3-2). White has to answer that move with a 3rd eye establishing move, aka a "gote" move. Although I am not sure if gote actually applies to a player who is going to win with a gote move. In other words, is a move really gote when it gives a winning score? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Correct for both cases. Nice! Case 2:  is gote, whether W wins or not. |
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