Life In 19x19 :: Pincer

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Pincer http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9337	Page 1 of 1

Author:	kungfupigeon [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:35 am ]
Post subject:	Pincer
Hi guys, I am around 25k so may seem simple to most but here goes! I was playing black, had a stone on the star point, then white approaches. I tried to pincer seeing this done before, but as soon as white jumps out, I feel as if I have two weak stones and cannot protect both, how do i respond? This is what happened in the game. I ended up playing a, but then b followed by white, and that's when I thought I was in trouble, black 2 suddenly looks very weak. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:01 am ]
Post subject:
kungfupigeon, this is a good learning experience for you. kungfupigeon wrote: ...as soon as white jumps out, I feel as if I have two weak stones and cannot protect both... Your feeling is correct. When W jumps out with , indeed you have two stones -- and -- and you cannot take care of both with one move. W has miai of (a) direction and (b) direction -- ( first, let's look at the local lower right corner, ignoring the rest of the board. ): Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . , b . . . . B . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$--------------------------------[/go]` This local result is reasonable. If you jump to (a) with : If you help your stone with , W can shoulder-hit your with : Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W Variation 1 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . , 5 . . . . B . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$--------------------------------[/go]` W can also pincer your with something like : Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W Variation 2 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . \| $$ . . . . 5 . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$--------------------------------[/go]` How W replies to will depend on the whole board, as always. Example: Suppose the bottom is as follows (ignoring the rest of the board), and W wants to develop the lower left bottom, then W may choose a pincer, like : Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W Variation 3 $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . 5 . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]` If you help your stone: If you decide to help your with something like , then W can pressure your corner stone with : Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W Variation 4 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . \| $$ . . . . 4 . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$--------------------------------[/go]` If we have this board, W may choose to pincer with something like : Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Variation 5 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . 5 . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -----------------------------------------[/go] This result is reasonable.

Author:	kungfupigeon [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pincer
Would you say my attempt to pincer in this situation was a mistake? Maybe perhaps if I had other stones I can?

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:21 am ]
Post subject:
kungfupigeon wrote: Would you say my attempt to pincer in this situation was a mistake? No problem with your pincer. And if you jumped to (a) with , still no problem. It depends on your follow-ups -- what happened after and . If you could post more from this game, then we can see what happened later. If you got a bad result later, it was not because of or -- it was something else later, and we need to see more moves to determine what was the problem.

Author:	kungfupigeon [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Pincer
Here is how the game went down: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 8 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I'm not happy by applying a pincer, I've actually helped him pressure my stones. Perhaps I could have played: This would help reduce the moyo of the bottom and it seems as if my corner area seems strong enough, even if it does get capped at a, doesn't seem too bad. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc variation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . 1 . . X . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Or instead of Black 10, I think I would like the shape more: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 8 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . 0 . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:38 am ]
Post subject:
Just FYI, the original question and the actual game are different by 1 stone. Original question: kungfupigeon wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ----------------------------------------[/go] The extra stone -- I'm guessing in the real game: kungfupigeon wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . Y . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 8 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:47 am ]
Post subject:
As predicted, the problem is neither your pincer nor the one-space jump , but in your follow-ups. All your follow-ups -- , , and -- are not good. When we get a bad result, it is important to find out which moves are the problem, and which are not. In your original questions (posts #1 and #5), you thought maybe your pincer was to blame -- this is wrong. Both your pincer and your one-space jump are OK. The problem is your follow-ups: , , and .

Author:

TIM82 [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:26 am ]

Post subject:

Re:

filled in one variation mentioned earlier for completeness sake, and a personal comment on the choice of which side to support.

Attachments:

more_variations.sgf [1.34 KiB]
Downloaded 663 times

Author:	kungfupigeon [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pincer
Thanks guys. Yeah that extra stone i forgot in the original question... Noticed something wasn't right when white had more stones than black. I can see how my follow ups kind of dug myself in a hole. Very interesting indeed! Appreciate the time to go through the variations and show my mistakes. Thank you!

Author: Bill Spight [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:57 am ]

Post subject: Re: Pincer

A couple of comments.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The pincer, :b2:

, is a fine move.

As is

is questionable, however. It is generally bad to follow your opponent from behind. :b6:

makes

a better play than it is. (It is not a great play, BTW.) The point is that if Black had the :bc:

, and

, while White only had :w1:

and

would be a good play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Variation for $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

makes a base with :b2:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Variation for $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

makes territory on the right side. Now if :w7:

, note that Black is outnumbered four to one locally. In the opening when you are outnumbered so badly, it is normally correct not to fight where you have such a disadvantage, but to sacrifice the stone. :b8:

is reasonable now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Actual game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 8 c . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . b a . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a common beginner mistake. Fact is, after :w9:

White is helped more by the exchange than Black. That is not obvious, but maybe you can feel the difference in strength between :w7:

and

versus

and

. White threatens to play at "a", which in turn threatens "b" and "c".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Variation for $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a normal response to :w7:

, securing the corner and threatening to connect underneath with "a". Black could also play here instead of :b10:

Author:	EdLee [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:03 am ]
Post subject:
Thanks, Bill.

Author:	kungfupigeon [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pincer
The last variation is interesting, I had the thinking of bridging under in my original play, but you are right, I can see how black 8 is a mistake, introduces weaknesses, something to look out for next time, like Ed suggested, directly under may have been a better play. Very enlightening. Thanks!

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