Life In 19x19
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I'm Confused
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9493		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Rowen [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  I'm Confused
As some of you might be aware I've just started playing Go. I've learned a lot just by watching and reading but there is something I don't quite understand.

Its part of the scoring I imagine. I played a fellow a couple days ago and he told me that all my stones were dead. I knew what he meant by the term but was not able to understand why by looking at my stone placement.

I've resigned on every game I've played with a person because I felt I was getting obliterated (and I'm sure I was right) but how do I know when I'm actually gaining countable territory?

I might be making it out to be harder than it really is.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Author:  Ortho [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm Confused
This page is a very good place to start: http://senseis.xmp.net/?IntroductionToLifeAndDeath

Maybe have a look there and then bring back specific examples that are confusing?

Btw, I had a look at your game against aiijifi with your nick on KGS. The reason that your stones are dead on the left and in the top right (the stones in the center should end up alive) is because they can't make two eyes, but you shouldn't just concede this fact if you don't understand. With the stones on the left, for example, they won't be able to make two eyes but you probably can't know that yet being a beginner and should definitely try until it is obvious to you, rather than your opponent, that your stones are dead. Of course, if you don't yet know what that means or have any way of determining whether they are dead or not, the senseis link will help, and as I recall there is a decent beginner section as well.

ETA: Have you played some on 9x9 or 13x13? I personally dont think it's worth playing on small boards for too too long but it really helped me as a beginner when the 19x19 board seemed way too big.
Author:  Rowen [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm Confused
Ill check that link out. I think I even have that site bookmarked.

I have played 9x9 a couple of times against computer and me and my daughter play 9x9 on my novelty go board (its really small). I tend to catch more on it since the area is much smaller but I'm not sure if we are ending our games correctly.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm Confused
Rowen wrote:
Ill check that link out. I think I even have that site bookmarked.

I have played 9x9 a couple of times against computer and me and my daughter play 9x9 on my novelty go board (its really small). I tend to catch more on it since the area is much smaller but I'm not sure if we are ending our games correctly.


Just play on until both of you are sure that all stones remaining on the board are alive. Then count the territory plus stones on the board to get the score. (This is called area scoring, and is easy for beginners because of the problems you mention. The other main form of scoring counts territory plus prisoners, and the scores by either method are within one point of each other the vast majority of the time. :) ) With some experience you will usually be able to tell when stones are alive or dead, and can agree to stop play and remove dead stones. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm Confused
Rowen wrote:
I've resigned on every game I've played with a person because I felt I was getting obliterated (and I'm sure I was right) but how do I know when I'm actually gaining countable territory?


This person should give you a handicap. Basically you play first and play more than one stone on your first move. :) If he is wiping you out on the full board, play on smaller boards or take a nine stone handicap. Ideally you should take a handicap that lets you win about half the time. :)

BTW, don't resign. You are not good enough yet. Let him tell you if you need to resign, or play the game all the way out.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm Confused
Bill Spight wrote:
Rowen wrote:
I've resigned on every game I've played with a person because I felt I was getting obliterated (and I'm sure I was right) but how do I know when I'm actually gaining countable territory?


This person should give you a handicap. Basically you play first and play more than one stone on your first move. :) If he is wiping you out on the full board, play on smaller boards or take a nine stone handicap. Ideally you should take a handicap that lets you win about half the time. :)

BTW, don't resign. You are not good enough yet. Let him tell you if you need to resign, or play the game all the way out.

And don't feel weird about taking handicap stones. This is a common thing to do in Go when there is a skill disparity, regardless of whether you're a beginner or a high-dan player.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Rowen wrote:
how do I know when I'm actually gaining countable territory?
I might be making it out to be harder than it really is.
This is a standard beginner question/problem.
At our regular Go meetings at the coffee shop, when complete novice-strangers ask about the game,
sometimes they ask the same thing as you -- one of the most common questions --
"When does the game end?" If I say, "The game reaches a point where both players agree it is over"
it may sound very unsatisfying; so now I say "Ah, very good question. This usually takes a few weeks to learn."
Because you need to learn quite a bit of life-and-death to know the status of each and every group on the board
at every moment in the game, all the way to the end of the game.
You are at this phase now. Good suggestions from Bill and others. :)
Author:  asura [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm Confused
Rowen wrote:
I knew what he meant by the term [dead] but was not able to understand why by looking at my stone placement.

Stones are dead if the opponent *could* eleminate them and you're not able to avoid this.
Normally the possibility is enough and don't need to be played out, but in doubt you can simply continue playing until all the dead stones are actually removed from the board.

(It's true that this might change the score by a few points, but compared to the difference of beeing dead or alive this doesn't matter much and can be ignored for the first time.)
Author:  TheBigH [ Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm Confused
Hi Rowen,
if you post the position at the end of the game, we can talk you through why groups are alive or dead.
Author:  Rowen [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm Confused
TheBigH wrote:
Hi Rowen,
if you post the position at the end of the game, we can talk you through why groups are alive or dead.


Thanks Ill have to do this on one of my games. I really want to make sure I'm doing things correctly.
Author:  PaperTiger [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
At our regular Go meetings at the coffee shop, when complete novice-strangers ask about the game,
sometimes they ask the same thing as you -- one of the most common questions --
"When does the game end?" If I say, "The game reaches a point where both players agree it is over"
it may sound very unsatisfying; so now I say "Ah, very good question. This usually takes a few weeks to learn."
Because you need to learn quite a bit of life-and-death to know the status of each and every group on the board
at every moment in the game, all the way to the end of the game.


Your second answer sounds daunting and off-putting to a beginner. You are telling the beginner they won't be able to end a game for several weeks, leading to the catch-22 situation of having to play games to learn how to end the game.

A much simpler and more satisfying answer is to say "play until it is obvious to you that nothing else can be gained". Of course this is difficult if you are teaching/using Japanese-style rules (territory) instead of Chinese-style rules (area).

Beginner rules are an oft-debated topic. The most recent mega-debate about this is over here. I recommend the area approach (as suggested by Bill Spight), but others disagree.
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