Life In 19x19
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Advice for Learning
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9542		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Rowen [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Advice for Learning
I've been playing computer opponents and a handful of human players and am loosing every game (I've bumped up my one program to level 2 because I was winning on level 1). I have been expecting this since I've heard you need to get your first 100 loses out of the way. :)

However, I've been mainly playing on a 9x9 board (even in KGS). When should I switch to a 13x13 and then to 19x19? From playing I can see where the strategy on the 9x9 would be different than the other, larger boards.

I am going to post a rather sad game that I had. Its problems like these that are holding me back. I've learned from them so that's progress but the edge still gives me trouble.....you can get captures so fast and I often miss it.

Thanks again for any advice and if anyone would be willing to play me in a tutoring game I would be most grateful.

Here is the saddest game you've ever seen:



EDIT: Is there a good place to get some Kifu of games? Once I get my board I can play them out and learn from them.

Attachments:
Rowen 9x9.sgf [1.85 KiB]
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Author:  moyoaji [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
http://www.go4go.net/go/ is pretty much the place to look up professional game records.

I'm in the process of reviewing your game, but I thought I'd give you this info for now.
Author:  Boidhre [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
Some thoughts (I'm not a strong player so take with a pinch of salt):

Main focus: Stay connected, don't automatically counter-atari.

If any comments seem harsh, please don't interpret them that way. I played games far worse than this when I was starting out. :)



Attachments:
Rowen 9x9.sgf [3.19 KiB]
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Author:  EdLee [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Rowen wrote:
When should I switch to a 13x13 and then to 19x19?
Whenever you feel like it. Just enjoy. Any game. :)

Your first project (other than to finish 100 games :) ), is to learn to see ataris.

Don't worry about "staying connected." But learn to SEE ATARIs:
Author:  Rowen [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
Thanks for the link Moyoaji!

Thanks for the review Boidhre! I think the most frustrating thing is when you point those mistakes out they seem blatant....like I should have seen them.

EdLee, appreciate that :) Wasn't sure if playing on a smaller board would hurt my game when I upgrade.


EDIT: One thing I'm stressing over is making eyes. I've noticed when I play the android app I have it pushes me back somehow and I end up loosing territory. Or I don't make 2 eyes and loose the territory entirely. Ill get it though....eventually. ;-)
Author:  EdLee [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Rowen wrote:
Wasn't sure if playing on a smaller board would hurt my game when I upgrade.
You are welcome. My feeling is 9x9, 13x13, and 19x19 are virtually three different games. :)
Of course, some skills are applicable across all board sizes.

For example, if you don't SEE ATARIs, it doesn't matter whether it's 9x9, 13x13, or 19x19 -- your stones will die. :)

So, your first project is to learn to SEE ATARIs.
Author:  EdLee [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Rowen wrote:
One thing I'm stressing over is making eyes.
Yes, this is quite common among beginners. As you gain experience and improve,
you'll learn better and more efficient ways to make eyes, instead of what you're doing right now,
which is to make 1-point eyes one eye at a time (which is very inefficient.)

However, if you don't see ataris, your stones will die. :)

Did I mention you want to learn to SEE ATARIs yet ? :)
Author:  Boidhre [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
Rowen wrote:
Thanks for the link Moyoaji!

Thanks for the review Boidhre! I think the most frustrating thing is when you point those mistakes out they seem blatant....like I should have seen them.

EdLee, appreciate that :) Wasn't sure if playing on a smaller board would hurt my game when I upgrade.


EDIT: One thing I'm stressing over is making eyes. I've noticed when I play the android app I have it pushes me back somehow and I end up loosing territory. Or I don't make 2 eyes and loose the territory entirely. Ill get it though....eventually. ;-)


Listen to Ed. Also, all of our mistakes are blatantly obvious when they're pointed out, I'm afraid that part doesn't get any easier! :D
Author:  moyoaji [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning


EdLee and Boidhre seemed to cover most of this. The only thing I did that they didn't do was gave a probable winning scenario following the early ko.

Attachments:
Rowen 9x9-comments.sgf [3.98 KiB]
Downloaded 785 times
Author:  Rowen [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
Wow, this has been insanely helpful everyone! It is greatly appreciated.

I will learn to see Atari's, I see that as my first step to a better game.

One more question....is there a glossary of Go terms anywhere? I recognize some of them but don't really know what they all mean. I've got a lot of catching up to do so I can understand more of the higher level conversations.

Again, thank you all for your support and advice!
Author:  moyoaji [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoTerms

Right here.

The rest of Sensei's is also really helpful. Think of it as the Wikipedia of Go.
Author:  Rowen [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
moyoaji wrote:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoTerms

Right here.

The rest of Sensei's is also really helpful. Think of it as the Wikipedia of Go.


Thanks again! :)
Author:  emerus [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
SEE ATARIs is a good start to counting liberties which is essential. Try to count how many liberties of every stone on a 9x9 game review. Most of the time, the best move is one that A. Expands your own liberties, B. Reduces opponents liberties. This, in my opinion, is the most important part of 9x9 games. In 19x19 situations, there are moves on a larger scale but it's important to get a good understanding of contact fighting in order to understand the larger scale moves.
Author:  NatOm [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
One thing I'd add is that you make moves pretty quickly. Maybe try and force yourself to take 15-20 seconds each move so that you force yourself to have time to consider more options and the position your in. If you still find yourself missing ataris, make it 30 seconds. Obviously you can take more time on a move if you need it, but when your starting out it can be helpful to slow yourself down.

As for the 9x9 vs. 13x13 vs. 19x19 its really personal preference. But I'd recommend skipping a 13x13 board, I don't personally see the point in playing a 13x13 game unless you are just wanting to play a bit faster. I also didn't play much 9x9 when I started because a) I tend to be bad at fighting and b) I feel too cramped on a 9x9.

Also if you ever want to play a teaching game, I'd be more than happy to play with you.
Author:  Tim C Koppang [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice for Learning
I don't want to overwhelm you, so please feel free to ignore me, but something that I found very helpful when I was just starting out was to force myself to (a) count liberties and (b) read ahead even just a move or two. The first helped me to spot ataris and know when I was ahead of my opponent in a particularly sticky situation. The second helped me to slow down, avoid making knee-jerk moves, and begin to spot those moves or mistakes that seem "blatant" in retrospect.
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