Life In 19x19
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/

Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9607		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  gostudent [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
During a recent game (15k vs 14k, and I am black), I have encountered the following sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 8 . . a b 2 , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . c . . d 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The standard joseki has W6 at either a or b, and W8 at c. I am wondering if there is any way for black to take advantage of this deviation. I thought about playing B7 at a, but if white responds at d, I don't have a good follow-up. For W8, it seems that there is an opportunity for me to invade at e, but I may be forced to live small if I invade there. Also, white can extend to the left to affect my left corner stone. So I ended up playing B9 as shown.

Is there anything that can be improved on this sequence? Thanks.
Author:  Kirby [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
It's already a bad move, so if you just play normally, it will probably turn out fine for you.

If you want to keep it simple, just hane underneath. It's good for territory, and his stones aren't doing much.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 2 , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  moyoaji [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Peep at 'a' looks great.

I would like to play :b7: more solidly at the marked stone in response to this because it leaves less aji and so that peep at 'a' looks even more harsh!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White is split in two!
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 1 2 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . 3 O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white doesn't play :w4: then you can connect under, which means white has 0 eyes and no points there. don't worry about the threat of a monkey jump from :w4:, you can still make life just fine on the side. Splitting white up like this is more than worth it. Now he has a weak group with no eyes on the right and a lone stone in need of a friend on the left. If he ignores his right side group coming out at 'a' puts him behind enemy lines. This move looks slow, but it is absolutely solid, white then has to run, there is no counter-attack possible. If white helps the group on the right then your move at 'b' looks even more promising - possibly play it one farther to the right to add even more pressure.

And the beauty is, you don't even have to play this right away. If white ignores your :b9: then this move just stands out even more strongly. What can he do then? He can't even try to make a base on the left.

I would assume this is the reason this is not joseki. It is too easy to cut white apart.


Be warned, however, that this marked White move below is played by pros. Common responses are 'a', 'b', and Kirby's recommended move at 'c'. Tenuki is also possible. I think this is considered a joseki move, but I'm not totally sure. Note that the peep is much less appealing because white is actually left with okay shape now that his stone is a 1 space jump and it doesn't create a needless empty triangle.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Possible joseki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . C . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  EdLee [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Kirby is correct about the simple second-line hane ( :b7: in Post #2) --
in the joseki, if B plays Kirby's :b7: hane, B gets gote.
But in your recent game's variation, B can play Kirby's :b7: hane in sente,
so B is already taking advantage of :w6:.

GoStudent, Kirby's reply is simple and good. The following is more messy:
moyoaji wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation A
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 1 2 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
This is tricky. If :b1: peeps first, and :b3: extends as above, then W will not simply descend -- W will hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . X O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

So B will not get the result in Variation A.

To get the start of Variation A, the correct shape is first clamp :b1: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation C
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Then :b3: peep, then :b5: keima, not the kosumi in Variation A:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation C (cont'd)
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . 3 4 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

If B wants to fight, Variation C is a possibility.
This is another reason the joseki move is not the 5th line tiger's mouth :wc: --
it also allows the :b1: clamp (in addition to allowing Kirby's :b7: second-line hane.)
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
I kind of like Ed's Variation C a bit better than my post (though I still think black is better in both).
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Kirby, I actually saw your question before you ninja'd it. :)
I have the same question as you about B's N3 clamp before B's R6 one-space jump. I don't know. :)
The hidden section in post #4 is pro analysis. :mrgreen:.
I don't know how to compare the N3 :b1: clamp before the R6 joseki 1-space jump.
Your second-line hane :b7: is simple and good (pro opinion). :)
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Thanks, Ed. I ninja'd the post, because after a little bit of thought, I feel like making white commit to playing the star point on bottom is better, as in your variation C:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation C (cont'd)
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . W . . 3 4 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


That's because white has two groups to worry about, and black is pretty solid on the right.

In contrast, if you don't make the exchange first, white doesn't have to play the bottom star point, so it seems to give white more options.

OTOH, this all assumes that white will play the bottom star point if you play this way. White maybe can try something else. I don't know what's best, but maybe he tries to fix up his shape somehow:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Actually, I don't know if :w2:, above, even fixes it that well, because I think the OP's off-joseki move is really funky.

Anyway, interesting discussion.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
I don't know if :w2:, above, even fixes it that well...
If I misclicked :wc:, I would consider fixing the shape with :w1: :mrgreen::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 1 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Kirby wrote:
because I think the OP's off-joseki move is really funky.
Anyway, interesting discussion.
Yes, I agree. I learned a bunch of stuff thanks to :wc: ! :)
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
EdLee wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
I don't know if :w2:, above, even fixes it that well
If I misclicked :wc:, I would consider fixing the shape with :w1: :mrgreen::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 1 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]



There you go! Plus 30 points ;-)
Author:  skydyr [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Kirby wrote:
EdLee wrote:
If I misclicked :wc:, I would consider fixing the shape with :w1: :mrgreen::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 1 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]



There you go! Plus 30 points ;-)


I realize you didn't mean it seriously, but the idea of 30 points comes with the implication that you made a ponnuki through capture, so that you only invested 3 stones net, while this is just a diamond shape and required a net investment of four stones, so black has received more in exchange.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
I think that we are developing a consensus that the non-joseki move is self-punishing. :)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Like the solid connection, :wc: threatens :w1:. :b2: does not work because :wc: covers the cutting point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


So Black can simply continue with a normal play at :b1: or :b1:. Now White has to worry about the weak connection.
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
skydyr wrote:
I realize you didn't mean it seriously, but the idea of 30 points comes with the implication that you made a ponnuki through capture, so that you only invested 3 stones net, while this is just a diamond shape and required a net investment of four stones, so black has received more in exchange.


Yup, I agree. If I could opt to move one of the stones in the ponnuki, it would be the top one.
Author:  gostudent [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Bill Spight wrote:
I think that we are developing a consensus that the non-joseki move is self-punishing. :)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Like the solid connection, :wc: threatens :w1:. :b2: does not work because :wc: covers the cutting point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


So Black can simply continue with a normal play at :b1: or :b1:. Now White has to worry about the weak connection.


Thank you for all your responses! I'll consider the clamp in similar situations if the board position calls for me to start a fight.

Btw, the main reason that I started this thread is exactly the diagram above: the option to play at 4-4 against the external attachment 5-3 is no longer appealing because of the deviation... so I am wondering how can I take advantage of this deviation.

P.S. What does "ninja" a post mean?
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
gostudent wrote:

Btw, the main reason that I started this thread is exactly the diagram above: the option to play at 4-4 against the external attachment 5-3 is no longer appealing because of the deviation... so I am wondering how can I take advantage of this deviation.



This situation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


only happens when black tenukis and doesn't play in the area.

Are you asking how to take advantage of the deviation *after* tenuki?

If you tenuki and let white get in the move at 1, you'll be pressed down, but you can push:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


But if you want to punish the off-joseki move, why not do so instead of tenuki?


Quote:
P.S. What does "ninja" a post mean?

nin·ja
/ˈninjə/
verb
1. To edit one's post after others have seen it.
2. Other such trickery.
Author:  Boidhre [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
gostudent wrote:
P.S. What does "ninja" a post mean?


As kirby said, it's a bit complicated. Sometimes it's an innocent "someone replied whilst I was editing and I was in a rush and didn't notice" kind of deal, other times it's someone trying to change what they said because they're losing an argument. In the middle is people altering a post because it was offensive to someone, though normally this wouldn't be called a ninja edit if the edit was marked. The key in all of these is altering the post without putting something like "Edit:" in there to indicate new content.

It varies from site to site what is acceptable. I've been on ones where anything more than spelling/grammar correction was forbidden and would be punished and I've been on ones where you could append several new paragraphs so long as you marked that you had done it. By and large though the sentiment is that you own your words, adding clarification or further information is generally acceptable, changing what you said is rarely so unless it was an obvious typo. Here people don't seem to mind so long as you're doing it for honest reasons. :)
Author:  Unusedname [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
"other such trickery" lol
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
One of the suggestions for play was this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This move has benefit in that it hits a key shape point for both sides: black's shape is good, and it keeps white from taking this point, which would help white's shape a bit.

It is important, however, to consider the reason you might play this move from a global standpoint. Looking at a "normal" joseki, under what circumstances does black play this move?

For example, here's a common local joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


It's even - white gets a position on the bottom, and black gets points. Great, right?

But let's consider a board position where black has some solid stones up top:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . O , B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Above, the marked black stones are very low. Black has invested stones on the right, and he can't really develop there - his stones aren't doing that well together. Black could consider a pincer or something else in response to the 3-4 approach, but there is another way of playing, which is also joseki:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 6 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Note black 5 and 7, above. These stones have a drawback compared to the earlier joseki: the marked area isn't yet solidly enclosed, so if white invades later, black might not get the territory. But the benefit of these stones is that black is no longer so low on the right, as he is in the earlier joseki. His stones are balanced, and he has potential for development. To be sure, white can still reduce (eg. shoulder hit), but the high stones working together with the 3rd line stones offer more than all 3rd line stones on the right. That's at least one of the powers of this joseki.

This brings us to the discussion at hand of the weird joseki deviation by white. Supposing the board position is similar to above, where black wants to maintain some sort of future potential, it might make sense for black to want to play the diagonal move instead of the more territorial joseki:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


But this doesn't quite work as well in relationship with the stones on the right as the joseki does. In the joseki, black gets stones both at the locations of :w4: and :b5:, above. But above, black only gets :b5:. To be sure, white is at disadvantage locally, because he deviated from the joseki, and the bottom can't turn out great for him.

But the point, in my mind, of :b5:, above, would be to offer development on the right - and to that effect, :w4: hinders this development.

In the above position, I don't think playing low would be good either, for the same reason discussed earlier. Probably just something simple to benefit locally. For example, since black is solid above, this would seem OK for black to me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . 6 7 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This all being said, it is probably still better to play this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


instead of playing on the 3rd line in a situation like the one above. But I'd rather not play there at all, since black doesn't get as much development potential on the right than in the joseki.
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Thinking about this a little more, *maybe* if this happened:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . C . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I would be inclined to play the marked spot - it's maybe better than 3rd line locally, but white can redeem himself (at cost of black playing elsewhere) after this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . 8 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


(Supposing that :b7:, above, is tenuki)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Kirby wrote:
For example, here's a common local joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


It's even - white gets a position on the bottom, and black gets points. Great, right?


Actually, it is not even. Black has the advantage. IIRC, Fujisawa Hideyuki (Shuko) pointed that out long ago. That is one reason that White frequently plays elsewhere for :w4:. (It is still joseki, since it is still a standard pattern of play, but White should not play it too early.)

Kirby wrote:
Thinking about this a little more, *maybe* if this happened:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . C . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I would be inclined to play the marked spot - it's maybe better than 3rd line locally, but white can redeem himself (at cost of black playing elsewhere) after this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . 8 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


(Supposing that :b7:, above, is tenuki)


The exchange, :b5: - :w6:, is good for White. White repairs his shape. (Black loses the peep and the clamp.) And Black still needs to protect against :w8: in the last diagram. Then after Black protects, White can play elsewhere.
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can this deviation from joseki be penalized?
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
For example, here's a common local joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


It's even - white gets a position on the bottom, and black gets points. Great, right?


Actually, it is not even. Black has the advantage. IIRC, Fujisawa Hideyuki (Shuko) pointed that out long ago.


Why?

Because of this approach?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . 6 . . . . 2 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/