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Stuck at 12 Kyu
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1540		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Wickwire [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Stuck at 12 Kyu
So here is the thing, I have been playing Go on and off for the last two years or so. In the last few months, I have really gotten into it. I am studying books, playing more games, and studying L&D problems. But I haven't seen even the slightest improvement in my game, I have been stuck at the 12kyu/11kyu level for a long time.

I have read all of the Learn to play Go series (a friend had them). I have been doing GoProblems.com (about 20 to 30 a day). I have done about 1/3 of Graded Go Problems for Beginners (vol 2 and 3). I try to play at least 2 serious games a day, but I also do several fast games (less that 10 minutes for each player).

I will admit, I very much enjoy the process of studying. But when there is very little improvement, it feels like I am doing something wrong.

If anyone who had a similar plateau at 12kyu-ish could help, I would be most thankful! If you know any way to get out of this rut, that would be awesome!
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Make sure you are reading during your games. Are you getting the problems you do on goproblems.com correct all of the time? Do you know you are correct before looking at the answer?

If so, do this in your games. If not, evaluate the way you are doing problems.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Hi, and welcome. One thing that helped me was reviewing game, either by myself or with someone stronger. So perhaps try reviewing a few of your games each week, and post a game (after you review it yourself) here for review. That way, maybe we can point out somethings that you don't even know are problems. That sort of thing has helped me a lot.
Author:  snorri [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
How often do you play stronger players? (I don't mean 1-2 stones stronger, which is basically indistinguishable at the DDK level, but at least 3 or more stones stronger.)
Author:  xed_over [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Sounds like you're doing all the right things so far.

I was about that same level after the first 2 years myself, and also started to feel stuck.

One thing I changed back then, was I started memorizing professional games, and recording/broadcasting high dan games at major tournaments. I jumped about 3-4 stones shortly after that.

A couple of other things to try: 1) play stronger players (even or handicapped games probably doesn't matter), and 2) teaching beginners can help reinforce what you've been learning.
Author:  flOvermind [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Kirby wrote:
Are you getting the problems you do on goproblems.com correct all of the time? Do you know you are correct before looking at the answer?


More importantly, in the context of goproblems.com: Do you know the complete answer before your first click?
Knowing the correct answer in this context means that you have already anticipated the reply *and* you already know your next move, have anticipated the reply to that, and so on. Personally, I consider my solution wrong when there is a reply I haven't thought of before my first click, even if I can still find the correct move afterwards.

I know it's hard to resist the temptation to just click on the board, look at the reply and then think again. That's the main reason why I prefer problem books ;)
Author:  DIV [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
A few years ago, at my peak play level, I was ranked 9k on KGS and had a consistent move from 20's to i think 13k and then a quick jump to 10k. I am almost entirely convinced that (along with what you're saying about doing problems and studying) it was playing many games and as many against higher level opponents, rated games against 6k's, training games with 1d's things like this. Taking fewer handicap stones than advised, all these things to really challenge myself, and then reviewing nearly every game alone or with my opponent or with an observing higher level player. It's all about challenging yourself and understanding the good moves that made you win or lose, especially the moves that made you lose and how you can apply the concepts used to your game. (I just wish after a 3 year break, I could remember all those moves...haha)
Author:  dfan [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Definitely get some game reviews. At 12k you have a ton of headroom. I guarantee you that if you get a game review you will learn at least three big mistakes that you are currently making over and over again, the curing of which will immediately help your game.
Author:  Stefany93 [ Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Wickwire wrote:
So here is the thing, I have been playing Go on and off for the last two years or so. In the last few months, I have really gotten into it. I am studying books, playing more games, and studying L&D problems. But I haven't seen even the slightest improvement in my game, I have been stuck at the 12kyu/11kyu level for a long time.

I have read all of the Learn to play Go series (a friend had them). I have been doing GoProblems.com (about 20 to 30 a day). I have done about 1/3 of Graded Go Problems for Beginners (vol 2 and 3). I try to play at least 2 serious games a day, but I also do several fast games (less that 10 minutes for each player).

I will admit, I very much enjoy the process of studying. But when there is very little improvement, it feels like I am doing something wrong.

If anyone who had a similar plateau at 12kyu-ish could help, I would be most thankful! If you know any way to get out of this rut, that would be awesome!











You have right, you are doing many things wrong. Here is the list


1. - Stop playing blitz! Blitz is for non - serious players
2. - The hell, play ONLY serious games! At least 30 minutes!
3. - Never look at the answer when solving stumego!
Author:  oren [ Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Stefany93 wrote:
You have right, you are doing many things wrong. Here is the list
1. - Stop playing blitz! Blitz is for non - serious players
2. - The hell, play ONLY serious games! At least 30 minutes!
3. - Never look at the answer when solving stumego!


1,2 - Blitz is fine when mixed in with serious games occasionally.
3 - Definitely look at answers. You may be surprised.
Author:  Shaddy [ Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
oren wrote:
Stefany93 wrote:
You have right, you are doing many things wrong. Here is the list
1. - Stop playing blitz! Blitz is for non - serious players
2. - The hell, play ONLY serious games! At least 30 minutes!
3. - Never look at the answer when solving stumego!


1,2 - Blitz is fine when mixed in with serious games occasionally.
3 - Definitely look at answers. You may be surprised.


IMO, nothing wrong with blitz at all. When I was ddk/weak sdk, I'd spend a long time trying to read through/evaluate a position and I'd always miss things anyway, because I couldn't read deep enough (too many branches). Blitz is good for learning to prune branches more efficiently so you don't really look at the bad moves (of course, have to play some serious games or read some books on strategy or get reviews or something, or you'll probably miss the good moves too)
Author:  SolarBear [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Stefany93 wrote:
3. - Never look at the answer when solving stumego!


I disagree. If you think you've solved a tsumego and you'd bet your home, wife and kids on it... you might still be wrong.

I'd rephrase that as "Never look at the answer until and unless you're absolutely certain of it when solving tsumego !

If you were right, give yourself a nice pat on the back. If you were wrong, try to find out what you did wrong and what your thought process was. Very often when I'm solving a problem, I'll make an educated guess as to what the first move should be in the current situation. I have fairly good instincts but it can be a major problem, at times, because some problems are crafted precisely so that the obvious move does not work !

Remember : the goal is not solely to solve the problem, it is also to prune out wrong variations and practice reading by doing so.
Author:  tapir [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Wickwire wrote:
So here is the thing, I have been playing Go on and off for the last two years or so. In the last few months, I have really gotten into it. I am studying books, playing more games, and studying L&D problems. But I haven't seen even the slightest improvement in my game, I have been stuck at the 12kyu/11kyu level for a long time.

I have read all of the Learn to play Go series (a friend had them). I have been doing GoProblems.com (about 20 to 30 a day). I have done about 1/3 of Graded Go Problems for Beginners (vol 2 and 3). I try to play at least 2 serious games a day, but I also do several fast games (less that 10 minutes for each player).

I will admit, I very much enjoy the process of studying. But when there is very little improvement, it feels like I am doing something wrong.

If anyone who had a similar plateau at 12kyu-ish could help, I would be most thankful! If you know any way to get out of this rut, that would be awesome!


If what you're doing already did not help. Change something.

Review your games (especially the lost ones) and ask for reviews on the server or on GoTeachingLadder. Try to get something out of it and apply it next time.
Author:  CnP [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
I went from 12 kyu to 11 kyu when I calmed down enough in games to read rather than just clicking (in the same way you can end up wildly clicking likely moves doing Go problems on the computer). I'd also recommend you get a book on Go proverbs for common sense (I think proverb books are a bit under-rated). Elementary Go series books, "Tesuji" and "Attack and Defense" would be good books to get (not proverbs), as would "Opening theory made easy" in my opinion.
Author:  dfan [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
Stefany93 wrote:
You have right, you are doing many things wrong. Here is the list

1. - Stop playing blitz! Blitz is for non - serious players
2. - The hell, play ONLY serious games! At least 30 minutes!
3. - Never look at the answer when solving stumego!

I dunno, I got this far and I violated all three of those rules.
Author:  palapiku [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
One guy I know got to 2d in a year playing only blitz and not doing any tsumego... Just imagine, if he played serious games and did tsumego properly, he could have reached 3d!
Author:  gaius [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
A lot of the tips above are good.

One tip to apply at every move: before you play, ask yourself why you need to play there, what happens if you omit the move, and which other moves are urgent (look at the whole board). If, after that, you still play a wrong move, it's okay, mistakes happen. But at least it should never happen that somebody asks you "why did you play that move?" and you didn't have a good reason...
Author:  entropi [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
I heard of a lot of people being stuck around 12-11k, 5-4k and 1k-1d.

It is natural that there will be plateaus for everybody. But I find it strange that many people get stuck at similar levels. Why are less people stuck around 15k or 8k or 2k for example? Or is it just a false impression?

It could be that each of these blocks are caused by a similar lack of understanding, as they are concentrated at similar levels. For example the block at 12k may be due to lack of basic life&death, the block at 5k may be the direction of play or efficiency, etc.

It is of course possible that this does not make sense at all, but if that's true this may give people (including me) a guideline to study efficiently.

What did people learn/understand to break each of these blocks?

Any comments from experienced teachers?
Author:  dfan [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
entropi wrote:
I heard of a lot of people being stuck around 12-11k, 5-4k and 1k-1d.

I think that if these blocks truly existed, the graph of number of players by rank (like this one) would have bumps in it, as players would bunch up at those points before moving on.

So my assumption is that a lot of the sense of common roadblocks at particular levels is due to confirmation bias.
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 12 Kyu
in my opinion rank reflect the level of understanding of the game.
it will take time for them to gain deeper reading ability and that might be why they plateau.
for example: you can achieve 12 kyu by avoiding getting killed.
but for you to pass that level you have to understand what thickness and influence does.
once you understand thickness and influence you might be stucked at 1k.
once you understand the flow of the game you can pass 1k~1d level.
after that every dan level is a plateau for me. :)
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