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having a fuseki of choice
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Author:  lorill [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  having a fuseki of choice
Hi,

It has been recommended several time to chose a fuseki, and stick to it for at least 3 to 6 monthes to improve. I never did, and played various things depending of my mood (but never any well studied one)

I'd like to try this now.

So, which one would you recommand to try for a 4k KGS, and why ?
Author:  Loons [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
I think playing a fuseki often/being familiar with it gives you a bit of a home ground advantage as black. Like, if you are heavily into Chinese, it can be easy for you to pick up an advantage as black against someone who's not really familiar with it.

The other reasoning for picking a fuseki often is if you don't understand it well / have trouble against it, you can learn its ins and outs trying it yourself.
Author:  shapenaji [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
Well, depends on what you feel your strengths/weaknesses are:

(These are just some primary ones that I play, look em up on Sensei's for more info)

Ni-rensei (2 star points and then approach a corner, bypass much of the opening and jump into fighting)
San-rensei (moyo-style... but it teaches you to be comfortable with your opponent invading. The 3rd star point does NOT make that side territory! :) )
Traditional Japanese (builds into shusaku, great for learning 3-4 joseki, so many of them can be used)
Low Chinese (I like this one more than San-ren-sei, feels more powerful, although it's less flexible. Think of it like a San-rensei that is harder to jump into...)
High Chinese (Puff, Puff, pass... Honestly though, I don't play this one, but my feeling is that it's more like a San-Ren-Sei)
Kobayashi (very territorial, and the anti-Kobayashi stuff teaches you some good strategies for reducing/controlling frameworks)
Mini Chinese (Lots of fighting in this one, and big moyos... still a very popular pro fuseki)

The Great Wall (I happen to think this is a very good teacher of what can be accomplished with central power. It's not easy to refute at all.)
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
It doesn't make much sense to recommend someone a fuseki based on their rank. Instead, ask yourself...

Would you like to be Bob the Moyo Builder?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Do you tend to pick the well-rounded character in video games, like Ryu or James Bond?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Do you just want the money right away?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Do you want your opponent to feel uncomfortable before the 5th move?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Do you like subways?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Are you on a particular stone fortification site in China?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  lorill [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
Thanks for the replies so far!

I don't really know my weaknesses, which probably means that they're present in every aspect of my game :lol:

I've always prefered playing as white to avoid this choice actually, I find it easier to disturb black's plan than to forge my own. As black, i've often played two hoshi + approach, in a complete internet-style.

I'm not fond of bob the moyo builder. I'd rather keep more flexible options.
Author:  lorill [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
The "subway" one looks like one I could like. Does it have a name to search for it on sensei's ?
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
lorill wrote:
The "subway" one looks like one I could like. Does it have a name to search for it on sensei's ?

http://senseis.xmp.net/?KobayashiFuseki
Author:  lorill [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
Thanks! I'll try to get the feel for it in my next games.
Author:  Harleqin [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
I think that the "subway" moniker was applied to Kobayashi's style, not this fuseki.
Author:  gowan [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
It was the late Kato Masao Honorary Oza who recommended playing one opening repeatedly. He did it early in his pro career. Of course he already knew and understood all these openings better than we do. One important thing is that you can't count on being able to play some of these openings because White can spoil them (e.g. san-ren-sei, chinese, mini-chinese, Kobayashi I and II) Some people follow this single opening approach because they don't understand basic opening principles . To get beyond SDK level you have to be more flexible.
Author:  lorill [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
gowan wrote:
One important thing is that you can't count on being able to play some of these openings because White can spoil them (e.g. san-ren-sei, chinese, mini-chinese, Kobayashi I and II)

Sure, that's part of the fun.
Author:  kgsbaduk [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
even best fuseki is bad with wrong style and tactic. If you like moyo dont play territorial or vice versa. Example i was playing mini chinese and i lose more than 70% games... when i start diffrent opening its changes to 80% wons.
Author:  fwiffo [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
I don't know about sticking with it for 3-6 months, but for 20 games in a row (or more if you feel like it), I think it's worth it. Some fuseki have well developed pro variations that are almost half-board or even whole-board joseki. For instance, I play Orthodox (the "well-rounded" opening in Araban's post) a lot, and by studying pro games with that opening, I've learned several strong follow-up sequences, and how to punish my opponents when they deviate. And a lot of the knowledge is applicable even in situations when that opening doesn't happen.

I like Orthodox because it's balanced, but also because it's well developed. It's been a popular opening for a long time, and it's the #1 most popular in the past few years (partly because it's the fall-back position if your opponent blocks the mini-Chinese.)

Kobayashi is also pretty easy to understand, and is also well-developed. The purpose is straightforward, and the associated joseki are not too scary. And mini-Chinese and micro-Chinese are the hot trend, so there's a lot of current pro games from top players you can study with that opening.
Author:  amnal [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
lorill wrote:
Hi,

It has been recommended several time to chose a fuseki, and stick to it for at least 3 to 6 monthes to improve. I never did, and played various things depending of my mood (but never any well studied one)

I'd like to try this now.

So, which one would you recommand to try for a 4k KGS, and why ?


For a start, I agree with others that 3-6 months is a poor choice of timescale. Maybe 20 games or something, but I don't think there's a great benefit in using it *that* exclusively.

Secondly, I highly recommend not putting any effort into getting 'recommended' openings. Just pick *any* opening and try it - maybe start with each of the ones that Araban has suggested. If you think that it doesn't suit you (the 'I am not a moyo player' thing, or whatever), ignore that thought and play it anyway. You'll learn something new. If you think you already know about it, play it anyway, you'll learn something new. Compare your results with pro games, look at what's different, see where people deviate. Personally, I think it's a bad idea to believe that you're qualified to know what you do or don't understand ;)

If you just want ideas to look up, there are various interesting openings. Senseis probably has articles on the Kobayashi opening shapes, the orthodox fuseki, the chinese shapes and the sanrensei, double 3-3 (especially as white). Other 'known' openings that are less well known include, for example, 4-3 facing 3-3 - a fighting territory shape.

Finally, there are also important local shapes to think about like playing a 4-3 as white facing black's 4-4 point and inviting the approach - traditionally bad, but not actually bad. Similarly, inviting the taisha or avalanche joseki will teach you something new. These 'openings' mostly depend on a single corner (though you can try to set up the others to help), but are still important to think about and will teach you a lot. Ignoring a corner, or multiple corners, to approach the opponent is a good way to learn a proactive stance to tweak the board to your needs.
Author:  fwiffo [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
amnal wrote:
Secondly, I highly recommend not putting any effort into getting 'recommended' openings. Just pick *any* opening and try it - maybe start with each of the ones that Araban has suggested.

The only point I would disagree with here is that there is a benefit to picking one opening which is popular with pros in that there are lots of games to study. If you pick the "great wall" opening or something else strange, you won't have any games to study.

Of course, you should play what you want to play and have fun.
Author:  hyperpape [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
Yes, I think the benefit of a common opening is that you can read about it, and see if your thinking makes sense--then you can try and apply the principles from what you read to the new situations that arise.

One thing: I think the orthodox may be the simplest fuseki to understand at our level. I'm sure there's great depth to pro games, but it seems straightforward, and doesn't require as many difficult variations as appear in the Chinese, or worse, the Kobayashi. For Kobayashi, I think you really are supposed to know some hairy 3-4 pincer joseki.

Of course others will find that straightforward feeling a bit stultifying.

I personally played orthodox for a long time and still do, then tried classic japanese/enclosure fuseki, mini chinese, and (rarely) micro-chinese or kobayashi. Once in a blue moon, I'll play sanrensai, chinese or a diagonal fuseki, but that's really just to push my own boundaries. And I'm definitely no model of go study either.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
I think if you like the Kobayashi formation you should go for it, it's a lot of fun to play and there's plenty of pro games with it to study. There's a great lesson about it by Charles Matthews (pretty detailed) here:

http://gobase.org/studying/articles/matthews/fuseki/18/
continued:
http://gobase.org/studying/articles/matthews/fuseki/19/

The basic idea is that white doesn't want to directly approach the bottom right because of the pincer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Kobayashi Fuseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now :w7: is perfectly placed to harass :b8: . As someone mentioned, the pincer joseki can get a bit complicated, but you don't need to know them, you just have to be able to use your stone in the fight that ensues. So pros usually play this way:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Kobayashi Fuseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
Maybe try to think of a time your opponent did an opening that intimidated you. Think of an opening that you fear as white. Then play that opening as black.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
I started using the Kobayashi before I knew it WAS the Kobayashi, because I saw a few opponents using it against me, and all of the moves were fast, developmental, and made a lot of sense. Because it fit so well with how I think about the opening, I generally do that or diagonal openings. I should probably mess around with different ones, though...
Author:  Marcus [ Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: having a fuseki of choice
I guess I kind of do this, but I try to be a bit more flexible than "force this opening as Black".

Here's a few branches of my preferred style of opening for the first handful of moves:

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]AP[Drago:3.17]SZ[19]CA[UTF-8];B[qd]C[Recently, I've been experimenting with playing a 3-4 stone first. Previous to this, I would always start with a 4-4 stone, which gives Black more ways to force a specific opening. With 3-4, White has the ability to trim certain options depending on which corner they play. In this small SGF, I've mostly stuck to White playing 4-4 stones.]
(;W[dp]C[Both D4 and Q4 lead to the same continuations ...];B[dd];W[pp];B[qn]
(;W[nq]
;B[lc]TR[pj]C[I'm a big fan of the Kobayashi Opening, and I've played a lot of games with it. However, recently I've been experimenting with this particular extension at M17 in various formations.])
(;W[ql]
;B[nq]C[This is a relatively new branch for me. I haven't studied too many games yet with this formation, and I don't often get to play it.]))
(;W[dd]C[White can play in this corner in order to avoid playing against a traditional chinese variant. However, it does open up the possibility of a mini-chinese variant.];B[pp]
(;W[dp];B[fc]
(;W[cf]
;B[lc]C[Here we see again the extension to M17 that I'm currently experimenting with.])
(;W[hc]
;B[oc]C[When pincered, I have begun to revert to an Orthodox Fuseki.]))
(;W[od]C[I have on occasion seen White make this approach.];B[co]C[In this case, I've been experimenting with a 3-5 like this.]))
(;W[pp]C[Both D4 and Q4 lead to the same continuations ...];B[dd];W[dp];B[qn]
(;W[nq]
;B[lc]C[I'm a big fan of the Kobayashi Opening, and I've played a lot of games with it. However, recently I've been experimenting with this particular extension at M17 in various formations.]TR[pj])
(;W[ql]
;B[nq]C[This is a relatively new branch for me. I haven't studied too many games yet with this formation, and I don't often get to play it.])))[/sgf-full]
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