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A common pseudo-joseki
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Author:  Tami [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  A common pseudo-joseki
Attachment:
contrary.sgf [145 Bytes]
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Hi everybody,

I'm posting a "pseudo-joseki" that seems very popular in the just sub-dan region. I am at a loss as how best to deal with it.

Black has played a low pincer to White's approach to the hoshi stone. White has jumped out and then slid into the corner. I would like to know what you think Black should do when

A) White pushes further into the corner (which is endgame, but, it has the effect of undermining Black's position)
B) White counter-pincers

Thanks a lot for your thoughts!

:bow:
Author:  Bantari [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A common pseudo-joseki
What can I say... http://www.bantari.com/go/writings/blooper_001.php
Author:  Solomon [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A common pseudo-joseki
Tami wrote:
A) White pushes further into the corner (which is endgame, but, it has the effect of undermining Black's position)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Make the simple extension; you gain more out of this exchange than White.
Tami wrote:
B) White counter-pincers

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . X . 1 .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . O . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
The simple jump is fine, it becomes a running fight.

However, I question this exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . O . X . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . a , .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Normally the joseki is at 'a' to press Black down. I question :w1: because it eliminates the possibility for White to take the corner (by directly invading at the 3-3) if he needs to. It's not quite the same as this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . 8 . . .
$$ | . . 7 . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . 3 . , .
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Because White can make a base here*. Because the :b3: is one line lower, White can't make a base.

* Apparently this is outdated joseki, but the idea still remains.
Author:  Tami [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A common pseudo-joseki
To both Bantari and Araban,
Thanks a lot guys! I'm having a "scales falling from my eyes" kind of moment here.

I remember seeing an old version of the "Go Bloopers" article a long time ago, and it is good to see it again. I think it's very well written and amusing too. Please write some more on the same lines!

:tmbup:
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A common pseudo-joseki
Noseki? Well, maybe.

Here is a fuseki from Go Seigen's 21st Century Go, vol. 1.

[sgf-full](;CA[ISO8859-1]ST[2]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]FF[4]SZ[19]GM[1]FG[259:]PW[Rui Naiwei]PB[Aoki Shin'ichi]GN[ ]PM[2]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pp]
;W[dp]
;B[fq]
;W[hq]
;B[fo]
;W[dn]
;B[dr]
;W[cq]
;B[fm]
;W[dl]
(
;C[*** Go Seigen thinks that this is too close. See variation.]B[jq]
(
;C[*** Go Seigen prefers the attachment. See variation.]W[ip]
;B[jp]
;W[in]
;B[jo]
;W[gn]
;B[eo]
;W[jn]
;B[em]
;W[dm]
;B[fk]
;W[ln]
;B[np]
)
(
;W[jp]
;B[kp]
;W[ip]
;B[kq]
;W[ko]
;B[lo]
;W[kn]
;B[ln]
;W[km]
;B[lm]
;W[kl]
;B[fk]
;W[ll]
;C[*** White is thick.]B[qp]
)

)
(
;B[kq]
;W[io]
;B[ko]
;W[im]
;B[fk]
;W[dj]
;B[fi]
)

)[/sgf-full]
Author:  Tami [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A common pseudo-joseki
Thanks for that, Bill.

While I see that White is thick in the attachment variation, it does look like Black gains a not inconsiderable profit in the lower right quadrant.
Author:  daal [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A common pseudo-joseki
Tami wrote:
I remember seeing an old version of the "Go Bloopers" article a long time ago, and it is good to see it again. I think it's very well written and amusing too. Please write some more on the same lines!

:tmbup:


+1
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