Price+shipping don't cut it for now (also this month I already made an order of go books, so it will be one more month without buying books after this
)
| Life In 19x19 http://prod.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
| Using joseki dictionary in games http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5672 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | walpurgis [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Using joseki dictionary in games |
So far I have mostly ignored learning joseki sequences and only know a few very basic ones. I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that using a joseki dictionary while playing (online, KGS) might be useful. Anyone got experience in memorizing openings this way? Or does this only teach me to rely on something other than my memory? I've advanced to 5k KGS like this so I think getting better acquinted with joseki might give me a little boost... |
|
| Author: | oren [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
Review joseki after the game. I think it's just a distraction during one. |
|
| Author: | Loons [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
I've been told that this is a good idea before, but ultimately I'm also in favour of reviewing after the game. |
|
| Author: | shapenaji [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
Like others have said, review afterward, There are many times when things that are NOT joseki, are nonetheless the best sequence for the given board position (or at the very least, a good sequence), Your judgement is far more important than getting a book sequence in place. |
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
If you learn 1 joseki after a game, then you learn 1 joseki. If you study joseki dictionaries, then you learn as many josekis as you can remember. If you read books that explain meanings of joseki moves, sequences and decisions, then you learn something general and applicable to all your games. At your level and if you do not know joseki well yet, studying joseki very seriously is a possible way to improve 4 ranks in 4 months. The hard way is to read a detailed dictionary thrice. The easy way is to read my complete joseki book series (Volume 3, which will contain just all the necessary josekis and some extras, appears in about 2 months, I hope). |
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
shapenaji wrote: There are many times when things that are NOT joseki, are nonetheless the best sequence for the given board position (or at the very least, a good sequence), Your judgement is far more important than getting a book sequence in place. Right, but if one does not know concepts and methods for judgement and a reasonable selection of representative book sequences, then one cannot do such a judgement and decision making well. |
|
| Author: | RBerenguel [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
If your joseki book was in PDF form I may consider it (or in SmartGo books), but as a tree-based book I'm not so interested (lately I read far more in my iPad than anything if possible). I need to understand joseki motivations, much more than learning any joseki |
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
RBerenguel wrote: If your joseki book was in PDF form I may consider it My current plan is to publish all my future books also as PDFs. As explained earlier, PDFs of Joseki 1 and 2 need to wait though (Joseki 2 probably longer than 1). Quote: I need to understand joseki motivations, much more than learning any joseki And then you don't buy the most fitting books because the media format is not your first choice? Do you want to become stronger or enjoy file consumption?:) |
|
| Author: | RBerenguel [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
Price+shipping don't cut it for now (also this month I already made an order of go books, so it will be one more month without buying books after this )
|
|
| Author: | judicata [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
People learn in different ways, so YMMV, but I think looking at joseki resources during a game makes you weak; similar to how weak/under-developed muscles will never get stronger if you don't use them. |
|
| Author: | shapenaji [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
RobertJasiek wrote: shapenaji wrote: There are many times when things that are NOT joseki, are nonetheless the best sequence for the given board position (or at the very least, a good sequence), Your judgement is far more important than getting a book sequence in place. Right, but if one does not know concepts and methods for judgement and a reasonable selection of representative book sequences, then one cannot do such a judgement and decision making well. In my experience, you'll get that information from games, it's not necessary to pick up a joseki book. And you should play more games anyhow. Experimentation is better than imitation. I think I've picked up a joseki book all of twice, and usually put it down a day later. They're really kind've a waste of time, especially since you can learn most of the basic ones from opponents. |
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
shapenaji wrote: In my experience, you'll get that information from games, How fast can you improve from that? How long did you need to learn the circa 500 most frequent josekis from your opponents? They also teach you fake josekis like After having seen this from some opponent, how long did you need to understand that Black is better and which rank did you have then? What enabled you to understand this without referring to books? Same for the question why White is better. Quote: it's not necessary to pick up a joseki book. [...] I think I've picked up a joseki book all of twice [...] They're really kind've a waste of time, especially since you can learn most of the basic ones from opponents. This is such a general statement that it requires different considerations: 1) Joseki dictionaries (or databases): At your or my current rank, this is more or less correct because we have already learned enough go theory knowledge to judge by ourselves. In case of tactically very complex josekis, I still occasionally look up some dictionary because I am not strong enough to reinvent quickly all surprising moves that all professionals together needed centuries to discover. Don't you need that, too? More importantly though, you are also implying that SDKs would not need dictionaries. They do not know have enough go theory knowledge. So why do you claim that they could reinvent and understand quickly all josekis? 2) Go theory books related to josekis: I am not sure whether you mean also them. So before wasting time arguing why they are necessary, please confirm whether indeed you think that they were not! Quote: Experimentation is better than imitation. Understanding is much better than both experimentation and imitation. To get good understanding quickly, a player needs go theory books or stronger players' regular advice or both. The fraction of players succeeding with only experimentation is tiny. |
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
RBerenguel wrote: this month I already made an order of go books Now this is a convincing reason:) |
|
| Author: | KGO [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
I've always used a joseki dictionary while playing. Nowadays, I rarely need it anymore. I think it has helped me to learn faster by allowing me to play above my level and to make sure I don't get stuck playing the same basic default josekis over and over again. Also, it combines playing and studying. I doubt I would otherwise study joseki when I'm not playing a game. It's cheating, but I think it helps me to learn and all other considerations are secondary. Obviously, you can't just follow the joseki dictionary unquestioningly. |
|
| Author: | quantumf [ Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
KGO wrote: I've always used a joseki dictionary while playing. ... It's cheating... I don't think its cheating in the normal sense of the word. Perhaps you are cheating yourself because you would not be able to play to your KGS level in real life. Does that matter? I don't think its cheating your opponent because you are at your current KGS level using your joseki dictionary crutch, which in my opinion is a pretty minor crutch. Perhaps it would be regarded as unsporting or inappropriate? Actually, use of joseki dictionaries don't really bother me at all. The thing I'm MUCH more worried about is when 4d+ bots become readily available. |
|
| Author: | cyclops [ Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
You are afraid opponents would use them against you in online games? |
|
| Author: | quantumf [ Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
cyclops wrote: You are afraid opponents would use them against you in online games? Yep. I don't mind if my opponent does joseki look ups, or has some tool to estimate the score. So long as a human opponent is choosing WHICH joseki, making direction of play choices and fighting the middle game. No doubt chess players have been through this. I don't know how they have resolved it (if they even have). |
|
| Author: | Kaya.gs [ Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
As a teacher i strongly suggest all my students to use joseki dictionaries while playing. Joseki is about memorizing a lot, and people with limited amount of time or energy (because after all,its pure effort) aren't going to do that in a systematic way. So learning josekis as situations arise is an extremely practical way to learn them. Considerations like "joseki isn't important", or that "it won't help you during the game" can be discussed, but are not relevant to what i believe is the core of this dilemma: is using a dictionary cheating? You can believe using one is a mistake and in such case you wouldnt mind your opponent using one. In my personal experience as a teacher, there is a direct correlation between lack of joseki knowledge and the feeling that using a joseki dictionary is cheating. The more people dislike it, the less likely they are to study them. It think it just doesnt matter. I am not able to recall any strong player ever be angry at someone for using a joseki dictionary. Even more, i feel very compassionate to people that take the game a lot lighter than i do, and are constantly tricked and get difficult and unfavorable games just because the opponent *might* have known a memorized sequence, something of very common ocurrence in online go. No joseki dictionary knowledge can give you the upper hand in a game, it can only prevent you from making a mistake, one already well studied and whose solution is at hand, and as such its a worthwhile tool to increase the quality of the game, and the learning process of the player as he is more likely to retain better and proper local sequences by putting them in practice. I have had this discussion in several countries already, and mostly i always find a good number of people that consider it cheating. I think european tournament rules ban books, which is basically banning joseki books as they are the only ones you could apply in a tournament. I disagree with that rule. That's like saying that you shouldnt consult any material after you graduate from a profession, because it would be an unfair competitive advantage to your colleagues/competitors. I dont know about you, but if a doctor is operating me and he is not sure about something, i rather he consults something instead of just guessing .I plan to offer players in Kaya.gs a comfortable access to a joseki dictionary which i believe will have an immediate and powerful effect over the quality of the games of each user. Also by providing an accessible way for both players to use it and being a server-wide solution, it will get rid of the cheaty feeling which i find to be not only useless, but detrimental to the quality of the knowledge of the community. |
|
| Author: | Tami [ Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
Kaya.gs wrote: I plan to offer players in Kaya.gs a comfortable access to a joseki dictionary which i believe will have an immediate and powerful effect over the quality of the games of each user. Also by providing an accessible way for both players to use it and being a server-wide solution, it will get rid of the cheaty feeling which i find to be not only useless, but detrimental to the quality of the knowledge of the community. I like this idea but may I add a refinement? When setting up the game, both players can agree to disable Kaya online joseki-book access if they wish, so they can have the choice. A check box could look like this: ロ: Allow access to Kaya joseki tool? Of course, this can't stop people opening up their copy of Kogo with the kegs client, but at least it sets up a control for honest players. As for playing on other servers, I think it's okay to use a joseki book, if you put a disclaimer in your notes to let your opponent know. |
|
| Author: | shapenaji [ Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using joseki dictionary in games |
Long delay in responding to these questions, so my apologies RobertJasiek wrote: How fast can you improve from that? How long did you need to learn the circa 500 most frequent josekis from your opponents? They also teach you fake josekis like To this day, I still make joseki "mistakes". I read most of them as I go, and don't make a habit of memorizing sequences. I learned nearly all of my joseki in playing, I improved to 1 dan in a year, and to near where I am now roughly 2 years after that. Occasionally someone would show me a trick play, but my focus was on seeing how the trick worked, not on memorizing the exact trick. That way, I could apply the trick/answer to other positions. I'd see joseki show up in games between stronger players at my club and online and I'd try them out. Sometimes with variations based on my understanding of the current whole board position: "What happens if I stretch further here, given that I have these other positions which will assist me if they invade?" Quote: After having seen this from some opponent, how long did you need to understand that Black is better and which rank did you have then? What enabled you to understand this without referring to books? When someone plays a "fake" joseki, the important part is to recognize that you got a bad result, not to know the pro-approved refutation. If you know you got a bad result, and you have the IDEA of joseki (that there should be an equal result there), that's enough to get you to look deeper. Quote: this leaves poor aji for black, but it's not unplayable, I would look at this and say: "well, this attempts to stretch further, but leaves aji on the right because of the push and cut, this might be playable though if the right side is more solid" That is what I tell my students to do, read, look for tesuji, evaluate the result in terms of the board position. Don't just say "this is wrong", which is my impression of a lot of Joseki books. Quote: This is such a general statement that it requires different considerations: 1) Joseki dictionaries (or databases): At your or my current rank, this is more or less correct because we have already learned enough go theory knowledge to judge by ourselves. In case of tactically very complex josekis, I still occasionally look up some dictionary because I am not strong enough to reinvent quickly all surprising moves that all professionals together needed centuries to discover. Don't you need that, too? More importantly though, you are also implying that SDKs would not need dictionaries. They do not know have enough go theory knowledge. So why do you claim that they could reinvent and understand quickly all josekis? 2) Go theory books related to josekis: I am not sure whether you mean also them. So before wasting time arguing why they are necessary, please confirm whether indeed you think that they were not! 1) I don't usually go to dictionaries to double check, but if I see something unusual in professional or high-dan level play, I will put it on my own board and grind it. The reading, tesuji, and whole-board-judgement practice is far more valuable, in my opinion. This is an unusual opinion, and it's one I'm sure a lot of folks don't share. But, I don't believe SDK's need dictionaries. I think that at their level, tesuji, shape and reading are much more valuable. The corner patterns have the highest density of these kind of problems during the game. It is a waste to then rely on an opening book and lose this fertile ground for study. 2) I don't consider go theory books to be in the same vein, since they will use josekis as examples illustrating a concept. Quote: Understanding is much better than both experimentation and imitation. To get good understanding quickly, a player needs go theory books or stronger players' regular advice or both. The fraction of players succeeding with only experimentation is tiny. No argument that understanding is the end goal. Some amount of imitation is probably necessary, but the goal should be to imitate as little as possible. They should be constantly trying to invent. |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|