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Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?
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Author:  Koosh [ Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?
Still awash with US Go Congress fever :batman:

I have been watching basic shape videos on youtube and the teacher explained the shape in the bottom right corner of the board in detail.
Video (25% opacity English subtitles available for lecture 1 and 2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAzNqhsTtH0

When replaying the above-mentioned game from Shusaku's collection - Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi [1861] - I came across the shape discussed in the youtube lecture in the bottom right corner of the board.

In the actual game, W - Shuusaku - played a bamboo joint, allowing white to hane at 15-18 and live comfortably.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 2 . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I wonder what would have happened if W had played on the first line to try to kill the black group instead? Is there a way that B can live in the bottom right after W plays the move shown below?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black to play.
I admittedly don't have an answer to this problem because the commentary doesn't cover it, but it seems to provide a continuation of the material in the youtube lecture. Unless... B is dead... and I am now stronger than Shusaku was. :roll:

My thoughts are below to start off with:
According to the youtube lecture, normally B attaches next to the white stone to start a ko, giving this sequence.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 2 3 . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 4 5 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have a hard time judging whether or not this ko is good for W or B, but what if W plays this way instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 3 5 9 . X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 1 . 7 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well...this could also be ko...but B has 2 points here and W could make the game play - a bamboo joint - now, threatening a flower ko.
Author:  Tryss [ Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?
Complicated?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 O O M . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . 3 2 X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Koosh [ Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?
@Tryss: I think white can play like this following your variation...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X O O 2 . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . 8 7 1 O X X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . 9 6 X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


--edit 7:39pm 8/18--
The above doesn't work :tmbdown:
B8 at B9 and the whole thing is muddled. Thanks Uberdude.
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?
Koosh, 8 at 9 in the last diagram? Unless you give a dozen or two variation diagrams to show white can handle the cut I'll assume Shusaku was right that he needed to defend. Black could also try to save those 2 stones and then semeai with the white group on the right for example.
Author:  Kirby [ Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?
Nice youtube video.
Author:  Koosh [ Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?
Thanks Uberdude. Sloppy reading on my part! I guess the corner shape had nothing to do with Shusaku's decision there.

@Kirby: I know the gentleman who is translating those videos; he's doing an awesome job! I hope he continues.
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