Life In 19x19 :: A Christmas puzzle

I think black is ahead by 5-10 points, maybe closer to 10.

Black seems to have have parity in territory even if we just assume there aren't any big endgames. I think I can understand why white just resigned given the opponent and the conditions of the match.

I'm not sure it is that hard to count but usually the strongest players are the ones that have doubts about their own side and expect the opponent to put up the toughest possible resistance. Maybe in this game there isn't much white can do but if you are playing the black side then you shouldn't be thinking that white will resign at any moment.

Maybe the endgame can go like the diagram. I should give it more thought. I think maybe black could play at a before :b11:

. These diagrams are inconveniently limited to 10 moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | 0 8 O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .| $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .| $$ | . . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .| $$ | . . . X . a . . . . . . O . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . X . O .| $$ | . . X . O . O . . . . . 5 4 O X . . .| $$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . O X X X X X| $$ | . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O X O O O| $$ | . . X , . O . O . , 7 . . . O O O . O| $$ | . X . X X X O X X 6 O . O X O . . . O| $$ | . . X O . O X . . . X O . . X O O O O| $$ | . X X O . O X . X . X O O X X X X X .| $$ | . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X| $$ | . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O| $$ | . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O| $$ | . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .| $$ | . O X X X . . O . O O X O O X . X X .| $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

Trying to help white, I thought about this peep but maybe it doesn't change anything.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .| $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .| $$ | . . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .| $$ | . . . X . 6 . . . . . . O . 1 2 . . .| $$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . 8 . X . O .| $$ | . . X . O . O . . . . . . . O X . . .| $$ | . . . . 3 X . . . . . . . O X X X X X| $$ | . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O X O O O| $$ | . . X , . O . O . , 5 . . . O O O . O| $$ | . X . X X X O X X 4 O . O X O . . . O| $$ | . . X O . O X . . . X O . . X O O O O| $$ | . X X O . O X . X . X O O X X X X X .| $$ | . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X| $$ | . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O| $$ | . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O| $$ | . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .| $$ | . O X X X . . O . O O X O O X . X X .| $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

I imagined a different next move, and had black just 3-5 points ahead. But I'm sure kvasir's endgame is better than mine :-)

As for why resign "prematurely" when black 157 is not by any means a knockout blow: I'm thinking of the tradition of "looking for a place to resign". If you know that playing out ordinary endgame moves will leave you a few points behind, then you might be better off trying a desperate invasion or otherwise making the game complicated. (At least at professional or high dan level. At my level, I have more success by just holding tight and gambling that the other person will make even more 5-point endgame mistakes than I do.) But in this position, black has secure territory in three places, with no large open areas where you might start something. Takagawa may have felt that playing out a routine endgame was an insult to his opponent, but there was no way to make the game more interesting, so it was better not to continue?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Not the best endgame move? $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . 1 O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .| $$ | . 2 X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .| $$ | . . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .| $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O .| $$ | . . X . O . O . . . . . . . O X . . .| $$ | . . . . a X . . . . . . . O X X X X X| $$ | . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O X O O O| $$ | . . X , . O . O . , . . . . O O O . O| $$ | . X . X X X O X X . O . O X O . . . O| $$ | . . X W . W X . . . X O . . X O O O O| $$ | . X X W . W X . X . X O O X X X X X .| $$ | . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X| $$ | . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O| $$ | . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O| $$ | . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .| $$ | . O X X X 4 3 O . O O X O O X . X X .| $$ | . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

I was thinking along these lines: surely :w1:

is sente? And then :w3:

stops black getting an eye at the bottom, meaning that black will eventually be forced to capture the marked stones. But after seeing kvasir's answer, I'm thinking black might answer :w1:

at 'a', and this might be one of those "bigger than it looks" [to me] endgame moves?

Author:	kvasir [ Thu Dec 26, 2024 11:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Christmas puzzle
OK, I'll hide my answer so people can look at it after having a try themselves. I think black is ahead by 5-10 points, maybe closer to 10. Black seems to have have parity in territory even if we just assume there aren't any big endgames. I think I can understand why white just resigned given the opponent and the conditions of the match. I'm not sure it is that hard to count but usually the strongest players are the ones that have doubts about their own side and expect the opponent to put up the toughest possible resistance. Maybe in this game there isn't much white can do but if you are playing the black side then you shouldn't be thinking that white will resign at any moment. Maybe the endgame can go like the diagram. I should give it more thought. I think maybe black could play at a before . These diagrams are inconveniently limited to 10 moves. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ \| . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ \| 0 8 O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .\| $$ \| . . X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .\| $$ \| . . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| . . . X . a . . . . . . O . . . . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . X . O .\| $$ \| . . X . O . O . . . . . 5 4 O X . . .\| $$ \| . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . O X X X X X\| $$ \| . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O X O O O\| $$ \| . . X , . O . O . , 7 . . . O O O . O\| $$ \| . X . X X X O X X 6 O . O X O . . . O\| $$ \| . . X O . O X . . . X O . . X O O O O\| $$ \| . X X O . O X . X . X O O X X X X X .\| $$ \| . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X\| $$ \| . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O\| $$ \| . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O\| $$ \| . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .\| $$ \| . O X X X . . O . O O X O O X . X X .\| $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go] Trying to help white, I thought about this peep but maybe it doesn't change anything. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ \| . . O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .\| $$ \| . . X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .\| $$ \| . . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| . . . X . 6 . . . . . . O . 1 2 . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . 8 . X . O .\| $$ \| . . X . O . O . . . . . . . O X . . .\| $$ \| . . . . 3 X . . . . . . . O X X X X X\| $$ \| . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O X O O O\| $$ \| . . X , . O . O . , 5 . . . O O O . O\| $$ \| . X . X X X O X X 4 O . O X O . . . O\| $$ \| . . X O . O X . . . X O . . X O O O O\| $$ \| . X X O . O X . X . X O O X X X X X .\| $$ \| . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X\| $$ \| . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O\| $$ \| . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O\| $$ \| . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .\| $$ \| . O X X X . . O . O O X O O X . X X .\| $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

Author:	xela [ Thu Dec 26, 2024 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Christmas puzzle
Thanks John for the interesting Christmas present! I imagined a different next move, and had black just 3-5 points ahead. But I'm sure kvasir's endgame is better than mine As for why resign "prematurely" when black 157 is not by any means a knockout blow: I'm thinking of the tradition of "looking for a place to resign". If you know that playing out ordinary endgame moves will leave you a few points behind, then you might be better off trying a desperate invasion or otherwise making the game complicated. (At least at professional or high dan level. At my level, I have more success by just holding tight and gambling that the other person will make even more 5-point endgame mistakes than I do.) But in this position, black has secure territory in three places, with no large open areas where you might start something. Takagawa may have felt that playing out a routine endgame was an insult to his opponent, but there was no way to make the game more interesting, so it was better not to continue? Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Not the best endgame move? $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ \| . 1 O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .\| $$ \| . 2 X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .\| $$ \| . . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| . . X . O . O . . . . . . . O X . . .\| $$ \| . . . . a X . . . . . . . O X X X X X\| $$ \| . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O X O O O\| $$ \| . . X , . O . O . , . . . . O O O . O\| $$ \| . X . X X X O X X . O . O X O . . . O\| $$ \| . . X W . W X . . . X O . . X O O O O\| $$ \| . X X W . W X . X . X O O X X X X X .\| $$ \| . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X\| $$ \| . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O\| $$ \| . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O\| $$ \| . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .\| $$ \| . O X X X 4 3 O . O O X O O X . X X .\| $$ \| . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go] I was thinking along these lines: surely is sente? And then stops black getting an eye at the bottom, meaning that black will eventually be forced to capture the marked stones. But after seeing kvasir's answer, I'm thinking black might answer at 'a', and this might be one of those "bigger than it looks" [to me] endgame moves?

Author:	kvasir [ Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Christmas puzzle
I can try to explain my thinking. My first move could be a little bit loose but that is the area I want to look for a move for white in. Basically, this is a situation of white having to defend territory and that will allow black many sente endgames and lot of aji to work with. If white can add a move in the center that is not small then that will have an effect that goes beyond the immediate change in territory. The descent on in the corner isn't really sente. It is a big endgame with a slightly smaller follow up, which in turn need not be sente either. My first instinct is that white would play the hane, if given the chance, I don't know which is better. I can't really explain this instinct. It is little bit pompous to give long variations (mistakes are likely and I have already corrected a few) but maybe it helps communicating something about why the center is the focus for me. I already tried to give variations for white starting in the center, so now if black gets to go first in the center. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm2 $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ \| . 1 O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .\| $$ \| . . X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .\| $$ \| . . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . . 9 . . . . . 3 2 . X . O .\| $$ \| . . X . O 8 O . . . . . 5 4 O X . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X X X X X\| $$ \| . . X . . . O . 0 O . . . . O X O O O\| $$ \| . . X , . O . O . , 7 . . . O O O . O\| $$ \| . X . X X X O X X 6 O . O X O . . . O\| $$ \| . . X O . O X . . . X O . . X O O O O\| $$ \| . X X O . O X . X . X O O X X X X X .\| $$ \| . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X\| $$ \| . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O\| $$ \| . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O\| $$ \| . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .\| $$ \| . O X X X . . O . O O X O O X . X X .\| $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go] I think white must give way in the center after , it could go like this up to . Next... Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm12 $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ \| . O O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .\| $$ \| . . X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .\| $$ \| 7 . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . 6 O . . . . . O X . X . O .\| $$ \| . . X . O X O . . . . . O X O X . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . 3 . . . O X X X X X\| $$ \| . . X . . . O 5 X O . . . . O X O O O\| $$ \| . . X , . O 4 O 1 2 O . . . O O O . O\| $$ \| . X . X X X O X X X O . O X O . . . O\| $$ \| . . X O . O X . . . X O . . X O O O O\| $$ \| . X X O . O X . X . X O O X X X X X .\| $$ \| . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X\| $$ \| . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O\| $$ \| . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O\| $$ \| . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .\| $$ \| . O X X X . . O . O O X O O X . X X .\| $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go] White can resist with but black has made lots of points and can at minimum respond to the small monkey jump in gote. Black seems to have a lead to start and the lead is only clearer now. I think this is a case of nothing really having changed. Alternatively... Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm12 $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ \| . O O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .\| $$ \| . . X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .\| $$ \| 7 . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . 6 O . . . . . O X . X . O .\| $$ \| . . X . O X O . . . . . O X O X . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . X 4 5 1 3 . . . O X X X X X\| $$ \| . . X . . . O . X O . . . . O X O O O\| $$ \| . . X , . O . O . 2 O . . . O O O . O\| $$ \| . X . X X X O X X X O . O X O . . . O\| $$ \| . . X O . O X . . . X O . . X O O O O\| $$ \| . X X O . O X . X . X O O X X X X X .\| $$ \| . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X\| $$ \| . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O\| $$ \| . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O\| $$ \| . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .\| $$ \| . O X X X . . O . O O X O O X . X X .\| $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go] White can continue to give way with . This looks similar to the previous diagram to me. Going back to help white... Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm12 $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ \| . O O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .\| $$ \| 5 . X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .\| $$ \| 3 . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| 4 6 . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . 2 . . . . . . O X . X . O .\| $$ \| . . X . O X O . . . . . O X O X . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . X 1 . . . . . . O X X X X X\| $$ \| . . X . . . O . a O . . . . O X O O O\| $$ \| . . X , . O . O . , O . . 7 O O O . O\| $$ \| . X . X X X O X X X O . O X O . . . O\| $$ \| . . X O . O X . . . X O . . X O O O O\| $$ \| . X X O . O X . X . X O O X X X X X .\| $$ \| . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X\| $$ \| . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O\| $$ \| . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O\| $$ \| . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .\| $$ \| . O X X X . . O . O O X O O X . X X .\| $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go] Maybe white should play more solidly with , but notice that black can still play a. White should possibly play soon to finalize the shape. I think one could update these variations for a long time. Always helping black and white when they seem to get the short end of the stick. Doing this isn't really my point, instead it is that the center seems like the area to find a move and the reason for that is that the center is where white is on the back foot.

Author:	pwaldron [ Fri Dec 27, 2024 11:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Christmas puzzle
Quote: My first question is: what is it about this position that makes it so hard for strong amateurs to count? My second question is: what made Takagawa resign. Takagawa's own answer to the latter question is illuminating in more ways than one. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ $$ +--------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ \| . . O . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . .\| $$ \| . . X O . . O . . . . . O . X . X . .\| $$ \| . . X , X . O . . , . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O .\| $$ \| . . X . O . O . . . . . . . O X . . .\| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X X X X X\| $$ \| . . X . . . O . . O . . . . O X O O O\| $$ \| . . X , . O . O . a . . . . O O O . O\| $$ \| . X . X X X O X X . O . O X O . . . O\| $$ \| . . X O . O X . . . X O . . X O O O O\| $$ \| . X X O . O X . X . X O O X X X X X .\| $$ \| . O O X . X X . O O O X X O O X . X X\| $$ \| . . O X . X . O O X X X . . . O X O O\| $$ \| . . . , O . X . O O O X X X X X O . O\| $$ \| . . O O O X X O . X X O O X X O X O .\| $$ \| . O X X X . . O . O O X O O X . X X .\| $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ +--------------------------------------+[/go] I would certainly put Black ahead with little chance of stirring up the kind of trouble that might lead to an upset. The difficulty is putting a value on exactly how far ahead he is. For me, it's challenging to pin down the edges of White's territory. In addition to the left and right centre, Black also seems to have a good move at 'a'. This seems to be the early yose--boundary plays, as John has pointed out repeatedly. And my impression is that is an area where pros are much better than even strong amateurs. As to what Takagawa's reasoning was...I'll look forward to that as a Christmas present. Merry Christmas to all!

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Sat Dec 28, 2024 6:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Christmas puzzle
The context of the game is that it was part of a ten-game match to gauge how strong was. At this stage he was still officially 8-dan but as he did not play in the Oteai then he had no normal way to become 9-dan. He was pitted against the top 7 and 6-dans, giving the appropriate handicap in each case. In Takagawa's case, the game was in the W portion of B-W-B, and so everyone was already saying Takagawa had a "challenging" game ahead. But Takagawa arrived 3 or 4 days ahead of the game and it was assumed he was devising a secret strategy. Whether he did or did not, he got a good game and was considered to be perhaps marginally ahead until he made a critical mistake on move 70, and despite a promising attempt to recover momentum, he ended up making a futile move 80. The rest of the game was just a slow descent to the resignation position, so Takagawa may have became dispirited in the process. In any event, what he said when the Yomiuri reporter caught up with him after the game, in an effort to explain to himself and the amateurs why he resigned when the game looked close either way, and even if it wasn't really that close why he didn't dig in and play on, was: "The game is close, but from here on, Black's territory will only increase, while mine will only decrease. And given my opponent is Go Seigen, it would be a considerable difference." I drew two inferences from that. One is that at least some of the amateurs were simply counting the board as it was, and were not taking account of the possible actual moves. The other is that Go was exerting a powerful psychological effect on all other players. Another piece of evidence for that is that it was around this time that Hashimoto Utaro was complaining about hearing drums beating loudly whenever he sat opposite Go at the board. He was clearly just hearing his own heart pounding in his ears, but stress makes people think irrational things. Or perhaps rational given that Go went to win the match 8.5 to 1.5. KaTrain appears to believe that Black is a good 10 points ahead at the resignation point. In another source, Takagawa, while making the same point that only Black could add more territory from the resignation point, said that at that resignation point White was about 5 points behind, so that presumably gives us his definition of "close" (the usual informal scale seems to be (1) jigo-ichi, (2) close, (3, above 5 points) X is ahead, or equivalent). We can infer that he had the same sort of sense of the final outcome as KaTrain. An amusing anecdote from after the game is that a landslide triggered by a heavy storm blocked the railway lines, and so the party had to stay in Hakone. A member of the public overheard the Yomirui reporter telephoning the news back to the office and spread the word. He message was "Just seeing their faces will make you better at go." So they mobbed the inn. But instead of asking for autographs or selfies or tearing off bits of the stars' clothing, a bunch of old guys lined up in the inn vestibule and prostrated themselves on the concrete floor. Ah, the good old days... For those who want to see the whole game, it is 1949-10-18a in the GoGoD database.

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