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Are you a crab or a monkey?
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Author:  John Fairbairn [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Are you a crab or a monkey?
There is a Japanese (actually Asia-wide) folktale about a crab that has found a tasty rice cracker and a monkey who has a persimmon seed. The monkey persuades the crab to swap and gobbles up his snack. The far-sighted crab plants the seed and soon a tree full of fruit grows. But the fruit is too high for the crab and so she begs help from the monkey. But when the monkey climbs up, he gobbles up the ripe fruit and hurls the hard persimmons at the crab, injuring her. Other crabs rally round and plot a way to get revenge on the dastardly simian. We can leave the details to one side, and in any case there are many versions of the tale. Suffice it to say that the crabs did get revenge. In one extended version, the monkey tried to do the dirty, literally, on the victorious crabs hiding in their hole. But when the monkey stuck his bum into the hole, the crabs nipped off all the hairs. Which is why, today, monkeys have hairless posteriors and crabs have hairs on their claws.

The go writer Saito Kaneaki, who reported on the Judan, once used the analogy of monkeys and crabs to describe go players who like quick profit and those who took a long-term view and relied on atsumi thickness.

Takagawa Kaku liked this analogy so much that he made a list of crabs and monkeys. This is his selection:

In the days when they were in their prime, Go Seigen, Hashimoto Utaro and Sakata Eio were monkeys (and Go loved to devour real crabs). Fujisawa Hideyuki and Takagawa were crabs.

Of the players who were still up and coming then, Otake Hideo and Takemiya Masaki were very much crabs, he said. Ishida Yoshio was very much a monkey. Young Kato Masao was a crab but one with strong monkey tendencies. It was still to early to say which way he would eventually go, but Takagawa believed you did end up one or the other. Readers will recall how as a newcomer, Kato won a lot of games but could never turn his plus record into titles. He agonised over why. Perhaps he had yet to stabilise his style, and perspicacious Takagawa had spotted this.

Among players of the past, even Shusaku was a crab, he said. When we think of the famously solid Shusaku kosumi, this may seem surprising, at least if you have the association solid = territory in your mind. Takagawa seems to be hinting at the perhaps better association solid = atsusa thickness.

One other intriguing assessment by Takagawa is of Iwamoto Kaoru. He doesn't actually say he's a crab, but he does say that Iwamoto has a highly developed characteristic of turning atsumi thickness into territory little by little in the endgame. This in itself is not a rare use of thickness, but it is unusual for a player to make it characteristic of his style.

So, do you have a hairless posterior or do you have claws with a five o'clock shadow?
Author:  Vesa [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
I think I have to re-read my Gödel, Escher, Bach.

Cheers,
Vesa
Author:  crux [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
John Fairbairn wrote:
So, do you have a hairless posterior?


I refuse to answer that question.
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
I am a crab. A giant enemy crab.
Author:  gowan [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
If I were asked to name some Japanese players whose game emphasizes territory (ji ni karai) I'd certainly put Cho Chikun (yes I know he is of Korean origin) on the list. However, years ago when he was asked to describe his own style he called it "flexible". I thought that by that he meant he would play as the situation demanded. He prefers a territorial style but if he has to he will play for thickness or play a moyo game.

Personally I guess I play a territorial game but I try to be flexible, too.
Author:  lovely [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
Cho U is another Japanese player who loves him some territory. By comparison, someone like Hane Naoki or Yamashita Keigo would be Cho's crabs.
Author:  Tami [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
When talking of amateurs probably most of us are ghastly chimeras. Perhaps the usual amateur is a 'monkrab' or a 'crunkey'.
Author:  jts [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
Presumably in a crab vs. monkey game, or a crab vs. flexible/monkey vs. flexible game, one player introduces joseki that lead to the style of game he likes, and the other player happily accepts. But what happens in crab vs. crab or monkey vs. monkey? You can't have both players going into the middle game with more secure territory than the other.
Author:  Jedo [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
jts wrote:
Presumably in a crab vs. monkey game, or a crab vs. flexible/monkey vs. flexible game, one player introduces joseki that lead to the style of game he likes, and the other player happily accepts. But what happens in crab vs. crab or monkey vs. monkey? You can't have both players going into the middle game with more secure territory than the other.



This kind of game is sort of like the pie rule, where essentially one player offers another "ok, will you please let ME have the influence? I'll give you 10 solid points of territory" "No, but I'll buy the influence for 15" "20!" "You have yourself a deal."
Author:  Oroth [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
What animal are you if your 'strategy' is just to start fights and try and kill everything?
Author:  TMark [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
Oroth wrote:
What animal are you if your 'strategy' is just to start fights and try and kill everything?


Human.

Best wishes.
Author:  heather [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
John Fairbairn wrote:
Are you a crab or a monkey?


I tried hard to come up with a Yee Hah Hi joke, but eventually gave up.
Author:  daal [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
It occurs to me that either way you start the game, the result will depend on your fighting skills. If like a crab you build thickness, you will have to create successful attacks later in order to overcome your territory deficit, and likewise if you start like a monkey, you must be able to keep your lead while fighting at a disadvantage. So while we amateurs may have one tendency or the other, it probably doesn't matter much.
Author:  Shaddy [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
MORE TERRITORY.
Author:  shapenaji [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
Tami wrote:
When talking of amateurs probably most of us are ghastly chimeras. Perhaps the usual amateur is a 'monkrab' or a 'crunkey'.


Your typical Amateur:

Image
Author:  emeraldemon [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
What about a player like Lee Changho? I've heard him described as a very calm player, with emphasis on the endgame, as opposed to a combative style like Lee Sedol. But is that a different axis from the "crab-monkey" contrast?
Author:  SuperfastJellyfish [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
Lee Changho is a monkey and Sedol is a crab ?
Author:  pancake [ Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
lovely wrote:
Cho U is another Japanese player who loves him some territory. By comparison, someone like Hane Naoki or Yamashita Keigo would be Cho's crabs.

Cho has crabs? :o
Author:  Loons [ Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you a crab or a monkey?
I played the symbolic role of the persimmon tree.
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