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| Sanrensei question http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10395 |
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| Author: | chef [ Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Sanrensei question |
What are your thoughts about this follow up to white? I ask because I played a game where this happened. I still won but I didn't know if I played it well or if my opponent made a mistake. My this is what I played in the game. I'm really curious about two things. Did white make a mistake or did he know what he was doing? And secondly what is the optimal way of responding to 
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| Author: | Abyssinica [ Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
I can't say much, but I know is a legitimate invasion of the sanrensei.
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| Author: | chef [ Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
I should clarify that. I know it's a legit move, I'm curious about how white played it out. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
I don't know if is a mistake, but  very probably is. Why? Because it allows  , which makes a hane-at-the-head-of-two-stones shape, which is good for Black. While normally pushing from behind is not so good, in this case Black gets to make a wall on the fourth line while White makes third line territory. Note  . It is the standard play in this kind of situation to coordinate with the  stone. Each step by White adds only 2 points of territory in the limit, while each step by Black (this early in the game) adds more than 3 points worth of influence. (DrStraw and I are in close agreement about that.) looks like the right play for White. Then is simple and strong. Now if  connects at 9, Black has a good play at 5. After and  , it is not clear where White should play. If White plays as in the diagram, he is a bit overconcentrated.Edit: DrStraw spelling corrected. 
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
To add to Bill's post, if I may: notice the first move  is a hane;anything other local reply seems soft, to me. |
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| Author: | Aidoneus [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
Bill Spight wrote: Each step by White adds only 2 points of territory in the limit, while each step by Black (this early in the game) adds more than 3 points worth of influence. (Dr. Straw and I are in close agreement about that.) This seems quite reasonable and a useful general observation. Does there exist a thread where you and DrStraw have discussed this? |
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| Author: | Cassandra [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: To add to Bill's post, if I may: notice the first move is a hane;anything other local reply seems soft, to me. I would name an "osae", just because it blocks from above.
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
Quote: I can't say much, but I know is a legitimate invasion of the sanrensei.There is not a single example of this in pro database games, even late in the game. |
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| Author: | Abyssinica [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
John Fairbairn wrote: Quote: I can't say much, but I know is a legitimate invasion of the sanrensei.There is not a single example of this in pro database games, even late in the game. Are you sure? I'm pretty sure a professional developed this move. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
It looks strange to me too; not a usual invasion in my experience. What I have seen is it played when white caps the middle hoshi stone and black answers that cap with his own cap, as in a spectacular Cho vs Takemiya game I've posted here before (and that's where white has already taken both corners and black has walls facing the right side). Cho ends up living by losing a corner. Something else I've seen is Shuko advocating the 2nd line invasion under the middle hoshi in later positions arising from the san ren sei. |
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
Aidoneus wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Each step by White adds only 2 points of territory in the limit, while each step by Black (this early in the game) adds more than 3 points worth of influence. (Dr. Straw and I are in close agreement about that.) This seems quite reasonable and a useful general observation. Does there exist a thread where you and DrStraw have discussed this? Thank you for the correct appellation. Bill seems to want to refer to me as Dr. Straw, not DrStraw. As for your question, I don't recall a specific thread, more just comments scattered throughout the forum. |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
That looks like a good topic for a separate thread. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10399 |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
Abyssinica wrote: John Fairbairn wrote: Quote: I can't say much, but I know is a legitimate invasion of the sanrensei.There is not a single example of this in pro database games, even late in the game. Are you sure? I'm pretty sure a professional developed this move. GoGoD has no examples with san-ren-sei. Nevertheless it can give us some ideas... Note the marked stone below was played as a ladder (upper side) breaking attachment on top of the White stone so White continued at the top originally, leading to an 'attachment underneath' by transposition. The marked stone below is another ladder breaker. Note that all the examples where the player on top (White below) pushes at are situations where the opponent (e.g. Black below) holds one or both adjacent corners. |
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| Author: | daal [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:20 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question | ||
John Fairbairn wrote: There is not a single example of this in pro database games, even late in the game. I found one (move 130):
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
daal wrote: John Fairbairn wrote: There is not a single example of this in pro database games, even late in the game. I found one (move 130): Hardly qualifies as a sanrensei at that point. |
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| Author: | wineandgolover [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
DrStraw wrote: daal wrote: John Fairbairn wrote: There is not a single example of this in pro database games, even late in the game. I found one (move 130): Hardly qualifies as a sanrensei at that point. Well, John did claim "even late in the game." What a crazy game, how does that end as black +1? Amazing. Thanks, daaldude. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
DrStraw wrote: Aidoneus wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Each step by White adds only 2 points of territory in the limit, while each step by Black (this early in the game) adds more than 3 points worth of influence. (Dr. Straw and I are in close agreement about that.) This seems quite reasonable and a useful general observation. Does there exist a thread where you and DrStraw have discussed this? Thank you for the correct appellation. Bill seems to want to refer to me as Dr. Straw, not DrStraw. Sorry, DrStraw.  Spelling corrected in quoted post. Quote: As for your question, I don't recall a specific thread, more just comments scattered throughout the forum.
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| Author: | Loons [ Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
I'm a bit bemused by our apparent desire to call  ... Strange Midgame Attachment a reasonable move.Edit: I realise lots of people were expressing this tacitly, but I think we should be explicit here. was not good.
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| Author: | oca [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
Bill Spight wrote: ... looks like the right play for White. Then is simple and strong. Now if connects at 9, Black has a good play at 5. After and , it is not clear where White should play. If White plays as in the diagram, he is a bit overconcentrated.Just to be sure... if what should white reply ?I would say "a".. or is there an escape or good move with the help of ? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanrensei question |
This is my thinking.
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