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http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11680		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  oca [ Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  81
Hello,

This is a post to collect anything you may think of that is related to 9x9

I went back to that small size to have quicker games to adujst some basics...
while the rules are the same, 9x9 looks now to me like a wolrd of its own...

For now, I play with the app "goquest", with komi of 7... The first constatation is that I win way more ofen with white.

when I'm black, I explore both 3-3 and tengen for now... I have more success with the 3-3 point for now...

with tengen, I noticed these patterns comes ofen :

Pattern #1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . 4 . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . 2 . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Pattern #2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . , . 3 . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . 2 . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Pattern #3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . 3 . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . 2 5 , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]



When playing 3-3, like that kind of game (I'm still not sure if :b5: is an overplay or not...) :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 5 . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


So 9x9 players... what are your secret techniques would you say about 9x9 ;)...
Author:  Loons [ Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
Nine^2 is absolute balls to the wall madness for both colors. I think my stats against masec 1-2d on KGS are 90-95% losses.

On one hand, 6.5 points is a lot. On the other hand, white is invading an unfriendly corner and has nowhere to run.

What works? Read and be fearless, especially of ko which are, after all, exclusively local. Also masec clearly has trouble parsing ko.
Author:  oca [ Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
I'm still playing a lot on the 9x9 size.

Here is one of my favorite opening so far when I'm black.
The first time I saw that :b3: , that was gainst Crazy stone... and I was thinking that was too agressive...and make directly an elephant's eye at 'a'.
but... that was not so easy for me to find a good reply. after :w4:, I think the hane at :b5: works quite fine...

When I play on Goquest, that opening is also a good one for me (even if I still lose a lot when I'm black...)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . 2 , . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . a . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]
Author:  Bonobo [ Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
oca wrote:
[..] a post to collect anything you may think of that is related to 9x9 [..]

Then … pls allow me to add a link to Françisa’s post on the OGS forum where he introduces his 9x9 Go booklet “81 Little Lions”, I’m sure he’d also love some feedback there.

But if you just want to d’load it directly: 81 Little Lions - An introduction to the 9x9 board for advanced beginners (PDF, 4 MB, Dropbox link)

Oh, and I like the 4-5 / 5-6 / 6-5 / 5-4 point a lot in 9x9 games for my first move.
Author:  oca [ Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
Thank you for the link Bonobo !

I liked the "Furikawari" chapter very much
Till now,I was thinking that :w1: was an overplay...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . . X . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]
Author:  oca [ Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
What I'm searching with the 9x9 is to better understand the limit between
- overplay,
- being reasonable
- and being slack :roll:

What is nice is that on a 9x9 game, you get quick feedback of your playing.
Author:  RBerenguel [ Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
oca wrote:
What I'm searching with the 9x9 is to better understand the limit between
- overplay,
- being reasonable
- and being slack :roll:

What is nice is that on a 9x9 game, you get quick feedback of your playing.


Well, as black against 6.5 points I always end up winning games "only" when I'm actually unreasonable and either get a huge chunk of territory or kill something. All other lines are way too blurry: a really minor slack move here and there and you suddenly lose by half a point!
Author:  oca [ Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
RBerenguel wrote:
... when I'm actually unreasonable and either get a huge chunk of territory or kill something. ...


That's also how I feel, but when I play a stronger player, he both is reasonable AND and he kills my group(s)... ;)
Author:  oca [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
This link seems nice :

https://online-go.com/puzzle/181
Author:  sybob [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
I know komi on 9x9 is generally set at 7.5, but I cannot help but feel it puts black at a disadvantage: (s)he has to kill or play more efficiently than white while black normally is the weaker player. Difficult for black, it is almost like forcing him/her to make moves which might be considered overplay on 19x19 hoping white falls for it.

On GoQuest though, the weaker player can also be assigned white (at random?). So, on GoQuest, it is perhaps more of a random / coincidence thing?
Author:  oren [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
sybob wrote:
I know komi on 9x9 is generally set at 7.5, but I cannot help but feel it puts black at a disadvantage: (s)he has to kill or play more efficiently than white while black normally is the weaker player. Difficult for black, it is almost like forcing him/her to make moves which might be considered overplay on 19x19 hoping white falls for it.


7.5 with area rules and 6.5 with territory rules in general (if there is a general for 9x9).
Author:  oca [ Wed May 20, 2015 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
Hi,

Still lot of 9x9 games for me...

on https://online-go.com/puzzle/181, I saw these possible answers to :b1: at tengen :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . , . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


I wonder why d or e are not present... are they known to be inferior to a-c ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . e d . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Any idea ?

d and e occurs frequently when I play on goquest... even from opponenents that are way stonger than me...
Author:  Bki [ Wed May 20, 2015 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
Hum... d would be met at e, and my feeling is that whatever white try afterwards, black will get a superior result... Or maybe Black play the 3-3?

For e, hane, and if white cross cut, it's likely that one of white's stone will end up being captured due to the edge being so close. Double hane seems to be inferior, and the extension is meh.

That's just my feeling on examining the position quickly though, I may be mistaken.
Author:  oca [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
Hi Bki, thanks for your reply,

I would say that 'd' occurs more frequently then 'e' in my games...
and that patterns follows :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . , . c b , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Then I tend to prefer the hane 'a', because the hane at 'b' let white reply at 'c' which is not easy for me to handle, leading to these kind of situation...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 houps...
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 X O . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 2 1 , . . |
$$ | . 0 7 6 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


So I prefer that way :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . a b . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . X O c . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , . . d , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


and then, tenuki, c and d doesn't look so good to me, so I ofen play at 'a', and also try recently the double hane at 'b' which seems to be interessting...
but I need more games to see what works the best for me ;)
Author:  topazg [ Thu May 21, 2015 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
oca wrote:
Then I tend to prefer the hane 'a', because the hane at 'b' let white reply at 'c' which is not easy for me to handle, leading to these kind of situation...


How about these?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 Sacrifice bigger...
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , 3 2 1 7 . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 6 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 Atari is often bad anyway...
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]
Author:  oca [ Thu May 21, 2015 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
oh... I like that :b9: in your first diagram, I should try that too ...
so many things to try... but fortunatly goquest can now send the sgf via email, that will help me to keep track of my different tries...

the second diagram is scary for me but I should also try that...
Author:  topazg [ Thu May 21, 2015 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 A continuation
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , 5 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . 7 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 Another idea
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . 7 , . . |
$$ | . . . 9 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 Another idea
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , a . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 7 0 . |
$$ | . . . . X O . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . X O . 6 . |
$$ | . . , . 2 1 3 9 . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Go is full of interesting things to read :)
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu May 21, 2015 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
topazg wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 Atari is often bad anyway...
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Actually atari is probably good because

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , 3 2 1 5 . . |
$$ | . . . 6 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Is more cramped for white than

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , 4 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


It's a bit of a moot point here as both are awesome for black, but it's an important shape principle. You see a similar idea in this joseki punishment: http://josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhofnd ... rjrkqkpkmi. White should play the atari on the 2 stones before the 3 because if you do the 3 first then black can extend the 2 as his escape plan (which still sucks big time when you take the 3) but at least his extension gives his outside stones more liberties and better shape than if you get that atari in on them.*

Ninja-d again, but topazg your last diagram end it faster:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm3 Another idea
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . X O . 6 . |
$$ | . . , . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


* Actually maybe it's not so clear cut, because playing atari on the 2 first allows black's escape plan to be connecting underneath as taking the 2 stones only gains the 4 white ones 1 liberty.
Author:  topazg [ Thu May 21, 2015 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
This is probably a better version of the one you liked btw:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm9 Sacrifice even bigger...
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . X O 8 6 . |
$$ | . . , X O X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . X O O 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Never be afraid to use your stones as forcing exchanges instead of keeping them alive :)
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu May 21, 2015 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 81
topazg wrote:

Never be afraid to use your stones as forcing exchanges instead of keeping them alive :)


This is especially true on 9x9 I think. Bots are particularly good at sacrificing because they don't have the emotional attachments to their stones like humans do. So many of the impressive bot plays I have seen on 9x9 involve them dying early on but using the forcing moves and aji to win.
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