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| Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11990 |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
I am thinking about this with respect to teaching my bot how to play, but it struck me that gainful joseki study is something us non-computers have put a lot of thought into for ourselves. Obviously these reasonable sequences have something to do with eachother: Or similarly Now these were all at least kind of joseki, though one could imagine only knowing one sequence and kind of inferring the others. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
Can you explain more clearly what you mean? I don't follow. Are you saying that, if you know one joseki, you can infer others? |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
If I only know this joseki: And my opponent plays this: I expect 'a' or 'b' to be reasonable moves. Is this a way you use joseki in games? |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
And by extension can I expect 'a' and 'b' to be reasonable? And given all that, can I infer: Though now the next moves look quite different. Edit: So rather than saying I want to infer non-joseki, I want to infer new joseki from the little joseki I know. |
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
I don't follow at all. There may be some commonality between some of the sequences you show but I don't see how knowledge of one of them can imply knowledge of the others. I think that different basic principles are at play. Having said that, I do think that knowledge of some joseki can help with understanding of other positions which show similarities but which are not intrinsically the same pattern. |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
I am very interested in how other people find this obscure. I would say the 'only joseki I know' has genuinely encoded in it the value of the knight's move approach, an enclosure, extensions, pincers and presses. When my opponent deviates from joseki I know, typically the first place I consider is where I believed my opponent was meant to play next, and if not that stone, perhaps the usual move after that. Edit: I know lots and lots of joseki, and there are arbitrarily many cases - especially in contact fights - where a given tewari would be crazy. I guess what I may be confused about is that I think we might recognise the value of a move because of its place in joseki we know, versus recognising the value of a joseki because of the value of moves it contains. So I am cherry-picking when I say that these sequences seem - for all their difference - tremendously similar |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
Loons wrote: If I only know this joseki: And my opponent plays this: I expect 'a' or 'b' to be reasonable moves. Is this a way you use joseki in games? Ah, it's an interesting idea. I never thought about it that way before. I guess the idea is based on the proverb that "the opponent's good move is a good move for me". I don't know if it always works, but it might be good for identifying candidate moves. For example, if I only know this: and my opponent plays this: then 'a' seems questionable: |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
I think of contact moves as a special case, expanding contact to mean 'eight-connected'. Edit: Also, your '5' is not a tenuki-point in joseki. AND '6' is bad suji but in the right direction. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Tip: Styles can be applied quickly to selected text. |
The most common reply to all 3-4 based pincers is a jump straight up: 2-space jump against 2-space or 3-space pincers, 1-space jump from a 1-space low pincer. The one exception is the 1-space high pincer where the keima shoulder hit against the pincer stone has been played slightly more often than the 1-space jump. I do not think that your method will yield any of these replies. This seems a major weakness. Also where do you start? By far the most common reply to the diagonal response to the original approach is to tenuki. Your 2-space extension ranks fifth. So which 'reasonable' sequences will you seed your program with? Going back to your original question, is this how I think about joseki? No. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
Loons wrote: I think of contact moves as a special case, expanding contact to mean 'eight-connected'. Edit: Also, your '5' is not a tenuki-point in joseki. AND '6' is bad suji but in the right direction. Like I said, it's an interesting idea, and can give you candidate moves - just like the proverb can ("the opponent's good move is a good move for me"). But I'd consider it a heuristic more than a definite rule. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
Loons wrote: I think of contact moves as a special case, expanding contact to mean 'eight-connected'. ... Careful! Haven't you just declared 4 below an 8-connected special case? |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
ez4u wrote: Loons wrote: I think of contact moves as a special case, expanding contact to mean 'eight-connected'. ... Careful! Haven't you just declared 4 below an 8-connected special case? My joseki choice was biased as "variation of the first joseki in Takao's" with a 4-4 variation tacked on. That is indeed a special case and a reasonable move. My definition of reasonable is something like "not unambiguously a mistake in a joseki dictionary". This is the first joseki given after "two space jump and counter pincer : see the high pincer". NB. I am exploring this idea. I would guess the special case about contact moves would be something like, if what would be a later move in the contact fight was played before the earlier move, that invalidates the other move(s) as candidates. If both players "only know" this joseki but black accidentally played this 3, I think the following would be implied: Because while 'a' is an earlier move in the joseki than 5 or 6, it is contact-linked to 3. The next available moves not contact linked to 3 are 4 and 5 (original 3 and 8). Now, this is not the best sequence in the world but it's also not that unreasonable. The heuristic that gave it is very minimal. I am wondering if the heuristic can be generalised in an egalitarian way to cover even more cases relatively reasonably. |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
Perhaps more appropriate. Discounting 'x' as touching a stone, and excluding stones 'x' would have touched, we get something like a counter pincer joseki. |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
Sorry for harping and harping on about it, but I would like to clarify: Joseki are in no sense a mystery. They are in some sense forcible sequences that each side can feel satisfied with unless they made a mistake in inciting it. Satisfaction comes in the form of the most points, thickness, sente, aji, relationship to other corners, fighting shape ... And the struggle to get these implies a lot of tesuji knowledge, counting and fighting skill. It is in no sense surprising that one joseki almost explicitly says what to do in another joseki by move priority and position in many cases, because high priorities are high priorities are high priorities. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
Ok, dude. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
This seems more like an examination of miai than something specific to joseki, though joseki provide clear examples for it. The key is to recognize that there are miai so that one can reasonably expect a locally decent result. As an aside, I suspect that one of the reasons a lot of DDKs and other kyu players have trouble with pincer joseki is that they don't recognize the miai options and double down on the original non-pincer strategy, which results in the opponent getting both of them. |
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| Author: | Loons [ Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Using Joseki to respond to non-joseki |
skydyr wrote: This seems more like an examination of miai than something specific to joseki, though joseki provide clear examples for it. The key is to recognize that there are miai so that one can reasonably expect a locally decent result. As an aside, I suspect that one of the reasons a lot of DDKs and other kyu players have trouble with pincer joseki is that they don't recognize the miai options and double down on the original non-pincer strategy, which results in the opponent getting both of them. This clarifies what I was looking at a lot in my mind. So what I was thinking about was trying to extract miai from a joseki step. |
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