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modern joseki question http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12682 |
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Author: | Calvin Clark [ Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:10 am ] |
Post subject: | modern joseki question |
I'd like some thoughts on this. I'll be the first to admit I'm over my head, and this is a warning to players who copy pro moves without understanding them. ![]() In the following game, I played white. We both chose a pretty modern pattern, up until the cut at ![]() In the game I continued as follows... ...but I did not like the result for white. (However, I am open to opinions that white might still be okay here. Even though white's corner is slightly bigger, black got sente and the thickness seems to work a bit too well with the micro-chinese framework.) I invaded twice, died the second time, and resigned, so I am wondering if the real problem is this early. For reference, the following pattern (I am not sure if they call it joseki yet) is sometimes played. (Another option is ![]() ![]() I feel that somehow I am misunderstanding the point of the hane at ![]() In that spirit, maybe something along the following lines is a better idea? Of course, I'm playing myself here. I am not sure black would really play this way. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: modern joseki question |
Did you consider 4 at 5 in the second diagram to take the corner? Also your knowledge of the normal joseki should allow you to deduce that you don't need to play the gote hane connect of 8-9-10 but the 2nd line atari and then tenuki. It is very painful to give black that move in sente (but is it really sente? ) |
Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: modern joseki question |
Calvin Clark wrote: I feel that somehow I am misunderstanding the point of the hane at ![]() I expect so. It is quite subtle and complicated, but an excellent case study of shape, move order, and engineering beneficial exchanges. I will explain later when I have more time. |
Author: | Calvin Clark [ Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: modern joseki question |
Uberdude wrote: Did you consider 4 at 5 in the second diagram to take the corner? Also your knowledge of the normal joseki should allow you to deduce that you don't need to play the gote hane connect of 8-9-10 but the 2nd line atari and then tenuki. It is very painful to give black that move in sente (but is it really sente? ) My opponent pointed out 4 at 5 as you mention, but we couldn't decide whether that was any good either. I do not even consider that during the game, which is a blind spot. Perhaps I was mostly concerned about white's safety. Regarding the hane/connect, there is something that felt unnecessary about it before I played it, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I thought it was okay because I would have a forcing move later, but it would much later (like endgame). I wasn't picturing the joseki result clearly enough to draw your conclusion. So the result may be chicken-style. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: modern joseki question |
So, lets study the reasons for playing that hane of white 5. First of all, let us start with this position, in which black has made the 2 space low pincer, white high double approaches, black attaches and then white plays the 3-3 and black blocks. I will go back and look at some alternatives in this sequence later, but we have to start somewhere. As black chose to cut off the 3-3 stone from the left side, the simplest and most logical way for white to continue is to connect to his right side stone. The following sequence shows a sensible continuation for both. Black gets a nice wall, whilst white gets some territory along the left side. Black has some weak points around ![]() So white's dissatisfaction with the above result causes him to look for a way to improve upon it, leading to the hane of Calvin's question. This threatens to play a and break through black's shape, and extend is a natural way for black to defend against that. (Note that the high counter approach here makes that breakthrough even more effective that with the low counter pincer, so to answer the question yes I think result is fine for white.) If after this hane extend white continues with connecting his 3-3 to approach stone and black wedges in as before then we get the following result: This is vastly better for white than Dia 2: black has not connected to his pincer stone and white is out into the centre with good shape. If the pincer were a 2 space high one at the marked point then at least black could get some small consolation with sealing in white with a, but in this position he simply answers at b to split black's elephant eye. Another way to see how awful this is for black is to go back to Dia 2 and play the hane later, it is as if white played this 5 and black answered with 6: Obviously white is being stupid here and black should play like this: So this explains why, if black answers the hane with extend, when white connects he should not wedge. So the next idea for black is to cut. White defends by connecting (if he plays atari on the cutting stone black could either extend, or counter atari where white should connect and break through munching the corner). This threatens to push through and cut at a. (Note that white does not yet threaten to capture the black cutting stone with c-g due to the presence of black's pincer stone making f an atari). Black has 2 ways to defend against this threat, the solid connection of a or the bamboo connection of b. The joseki move is the solid connection, but often when you want to connect you prefer the bamboo joint if it is more efficient: here it is nice to take a liberty from the white counter-approach stone (it doesn't take a liberty from the white corner wall but that's not so useful). However the bamboo joint makes B turn into an empty triangle which should set alarm bells ringing. This empty triangle is not a purely theoretical drawback, but a sequence can show it to be a disaster. If we recall from Dia 7 white couldn't capture the black cutting stone because f was an atari. But if black makes the bamboo joint then white can exploit black's bad shape. If when white pushes up with 1 black defends with 2 (he could also hane which is more complicated) then white crushes black with the following sequence ending in a ladder: If black made the solid connection and white tries the same thing he is simply caught in a net and black's wall is safe with 4 liberties: So to conclude the joseki, after black connects solidly, white plays the 2nd line atari now that it is clear he can't capture it with the other atari. This move is now a double sente that increases white's eyespace. White is now alive (and it's important to note that black b is not sente to kill the corner) and will tenuki, often to around a (to prevent black using his wall to attack the top side stone). If we look at the original hane and black's exension answer, we can see that the white cutting stone is not yet captured, and black would probably prefer the marked stone to be at c to securely capture white. However that extension is not a useless stone as it makes it rather heavy for white to pull out the cutting stone anytime soon, but white will often look to utilise that stone later when dealing with black's moyo, for example if white can build a group on the right side then he may persuade black to spend a move at d to secure the capture. Now let's compare one of Calvin's possible sequences following the cut after the hane with the joseki above. They are pretty similar, so at the sdk level I would say that reaching this result was reasonable enough at resulting in something joseki-like and not being tricked too badly by that unusual cut. However, it is slightly better for black than the joseki because ![]() Also if white does the 2nd line hane-connect, maybe black should just answer as below to keep his group thick, as I think these exchanges help black increase his thickness more than they help white increase his territory (seeing as white was already alive in the corner and the black descent there was gote, if it were sente then white here would have more value as a reverse sente). The reason being if black tenukis (maybe reasonable in the opening) then white can do this (maybe black should tenuki instead of 15/17): This analysis suggests the exchange of the hane for extension is beneficial for white, so why doesn't he play it before the 3-3? The answer is that black would answer the 3-3 differently to turn it into a bad exchange. ![]() ![]() This hane for extension being a bad exchange also occurs in similar double approach josekis (with various pincer placements), with the low double approach black's extension makes the checking extension of a on the top side a powerful follow-up with the aim of b (in case it's not obvious white's cant cut it off with c or else his corner dies due to ![]() Compare this to if black played the tiger mouth above after white played the 3-3 first without the hane, a rather soft move by black. White is now happy to connect up on the top. There is still the bad aji at a, but black can't really exploit this yet as he also has bad aji in whites approach stone. If black fixes that with b white can fix with c and is obviously happy not to have made the marked exchange (note that when white did make the hane black fixed with the 2nd line atari rather than b here to avoid giving white the atari at d). If white really wants to connect the 3-3 to the top side stone for global strategic reasons, then the hane for extend exchange can be justified in making a locally bad exchange in order to reduce black's choice and encourage him to let you connect that way, but it's a bad exchange that pros tend to avoid these days. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: modern joseki question |
The end. |
Author: | Sennahoj [ Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:42 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: modern joseki question |
great explanations, thanks Uberdude! |
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